Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Shen Kuo


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 02:07, 1 June 2007.

Shen Kuo
previous FAC

Once again, after some trials and errors (and some serious editing and reorganizing), I am placing this article as a FAC. Shen Kuo's article is very important in the scope of general Chinese history, since he was one of China's greatest classical era scientists (perhaps the most important). The article meets all of the FA criteria and cridentials, and reads much smoother with rewording of some awkward sentences from before. With the addition of the infobox in the lead, the article looks much better and more polished. Therefore, I am once again nominating this article.--PericlesofAthens 23:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Image issues.
 * Image:Shen Kua.jpg is labeled both PD-art and PD-old, but there is no evidence of this. The source page has a link to copyright information that states "We do not own the copyright to the images used on this website." and "[W]e cannot guarantee that there may not be outstanding copyright problems." In addition, since the source page does not give the artist or date, there is no guarantee that the "author's life + 100" rule applies. The tag might be correct, but we need additional information if that is the case.
 * Image:Compass in a wooden frame.jpg comes from stock.xchng ; the restrictions there state "SELLING AND REDISTRIBUTION OF THE IMAGE (INDIVIDUALLY OR ALONG WITH OTHER IMAGES) IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN! DO NOT SHARE THE IMAGE WITH OTHERS!" This is a replaceable non-free image.
 * Actually, this one is more complex than I realized. (Commons:Deletion requests/Template:Sxc-warning) However, wouldn't Image:Zhi Nan Ju.jpg be more appropriate for the section, in any event?  Pagra shtak  00:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 *  Pagra shtak  23:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, I can't believe no one (including myself) noticed that about the Shen Kuo image. I will investigate the Shen Kuo image to see what I can figure out, but for now I have replaced the compass image with a more suitable one; one that has a GNU Free Documentation license.--PericlesofAthens 17:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I have found the identical Shen Kuo image at the following websites; the first site isThinkQuest, the Oracle Education Foundation and here is their copyright status for use of images (which I can't make out very crystal clear, but it doesn't sound very promising). Then there is this random UK University of Bath site here  that uses the image, but the image used is really just a copy from the JOC/EFR site (they provide the link to it at the bottom of the page). Overall English Google Image results for Shen Kuo are pathetic. I have found that you can find many more images of Shen Kuo by searching with his actual Chinese character name, 沈括. Google using Chinese characters instead However, wiki user:Zeus1234 and I have viewed these Chinese language websites before in hopes to use images, but none of them (as far as we saw) had very clear-cut image copyright status or provided disclaimers. So now I am sort of befuddled on what to do with Shen Kuo's lead wiki article image. Thoughts?--PericlesofAthens 17:49, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a good amount of Chinese language sites that use that image or a slightly different one of Shen Kuo, but I cannot make out any copyright status on any of them really. There is a really good picture of a sculpted statue bust of Shen Kuo's head at this Chinese .edu site here:, the image itself found here: , but on most of these Chinese sites there is either none or nearly nothing in the way of information about copyright status of images.--PericlesofAthens 21:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Conditional Support Once the image issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all, I will fully support this article for FA status. As Pericles mentioned, none of the Chinese language sites have clear copyright status, making it very difficult to determine whether they can be used or not.Zeus1234 23:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Support I did some searching, and that picture is used by multiple websites (at least five). Therefore I think it is safe to conclude that its copyright has expired. If it was under copyright, why are there so many webistes using the exact same image? Even if it hasn't, the image would still qualify under fair use rationale. Therefore I am changing my vote to support. It is silly not to promote an article due to the highly unlikely chance that a photo used by many websites is copyrighted.


 *  Conditional Strong Support  per Zeus1234; beyond the image issue, this article is worthy of FA status. Cliff smith 04:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Support per my previous comment; it's unfortunate that a proper picture of Kuo cannot be found, but as Danaman5 said, something like that wouldn't bar a candidate from becoming featured. Cliff smith 04:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I just got done with my last final exam for school yesterday, and I will try now and commit some effort to finding out more about that image of Shen Kuo. So far there is absolutely nothing on the internet that would provide information on where this picture truly came from. It's looking very bleak to be honest, and I have a foreboding suspicion that this article will fail FA status simply because it is debatable whether or not his stupid image belongs to the Public Domain (which, from everything I've seen, should). Keep your fingers crossed, ladies and gentlemen.--PericlesofAthens 12:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, images are not necessarily a requirement for FA status, so you could remove any questionable images and still have a chance at passing.--Danaman5 22:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but it would look pretty awkward to have no picture in the lead infobox. Speaking of the picture, the other site that had a pic of Shen Kuo on the internet was Thinkquest, and I have been waiting diligently for word from them on Public Domain status info. Here is what they emailed me today:


 * We do not create sites in the ThinkQuest Library, we host them. They are created by teams of students for the annual ThinkQuest competition.
 * All information regarding content in a site should be cited in the site itself. If the image is not cited in any way (we could not find any reference when we checked) then unfortunately we cannot help you with your request, as we do not keep in contact with teams are sites are submitted.


 * Regards,
 * ThinkQuest Support


 * Sigh. :( That sucks, but I'll keep trying.--PericlesofAthens 12:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I have finally decided, after a long period of failed searching, to just scrap the picture of Shen Kuo and keep his infobox. The Public Domain status of his image cannot be successfully verified, therefore the picture had to go. The lead will just have to do without an image of Shen Kuo, because there is simply no picture of him online that is sufficient for wikipedia (in a copyright sense). I believe now the article is worthy of FA status, as all image-related issues are now solved with this last picture taken out (there are still plenty of pictures in the article).--PericlesofAthens 18:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes Zeus, I think it is silly as well about the Shen Kuo image, but as Pagrashtak has pointed out, there is no direct evidence on the web to suggest that it belongs to the Public Domain. There's nothing I can do, my hands are tied on this one.--PericlesofAthens 09:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Beyond that, what do you guys think about labeling the Shen Kuo image as "fair use", since there seems to be no free content of his image on the web?--PericlesofAthens 10:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * A fair use claim would not be valid, as the image is replaceable. However, I agree that this nomination shouldn't get hung up over it.  Pagra shtak  13:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * UPDATE Great news! User:Wikimachine has agreed to redraw the image of Shen Kuo and upload the new image so that it can be used on wiki as free content! He says he'll be done within a week's time. This is awesome!--PericlesofAthens 07:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * UPDATE Holy rusted metal Batman! Check out the new drawing of Shen Kuo! Wikimachine, you are simply awesome. That drawing looks incredible (I like the use of shading you did). Ok, this article rocks now.--PericlesofAthens 01:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * UPDATE Just to be absolutely safe, I have contacted the League of Copyeditors to proofread this article. Other than that, I honestly feel it is fast approaching FA status.--PericlesofAthens 02:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * UPDATE User Wikimachine has now agreed to add another drawn image to the article! This one he will be doing from scratch, showing Shen Kuo mounted on a horse in military uniform during his command in the campaign against the Tanguts of the Western Xia in 1080-1081 AD.--PericlesofAthens 20:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.