Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic and the Secret Rings/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:58, 29 June 2010.

Sonic and the Secret Rings

 * Nominator(s): Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because after a successful GAN, VG peer review, copyedit helpfully provided by Zeality, and final quick run-through (that wasn't on purpose) by me, I believe it is up to standards with the other VG FA's. Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - There's no dabs in the article but there is a dead link. GamerPro64 (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Tezero (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Brianboulton
Sources issues

Otherwise sources seem OK. Brianboulton (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 8: Suggest PALGN be spelt out as "PAl Gaming Network (PALGN)"
 * I'm not sure. "IGN" isn't spelled out. Tezero (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point. I believe that PALGN and IGN are basically logos which have become accepted as identifying names. Strictly, IGN should be IGN Entertainment and PALGN should be PAL Gaming Network, but I'll leave this to you. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 24: Author and date information not in accordance with the source
 * Fixed. Tezero (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Refs 41, 42 and 43 seem uninformative (cf nos 10 & 35)
 * Those refs cover simple charting sections near the front of each Nintendo Power issue. No authors are listed. Tezero (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No page numbers? No where-to-look indicators? Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The page numbers are already listed: 16, 16, and 14. Tezero (talk) 01:00, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * So they are. With no "p." indicator they look like parts of the dates.
 * Gotcha. Fixed for all magazine refs. Tezero (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2008/03/21/the-3rd-party-wii-games-that-sold-a-million/ a reliable source?
 * Never looked that much into it. It seemed professional enough, I thought. I'm hesitant to remove it because it provides the most significant sales information in the article. Tezero (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a blog; such sites often hold correct information, but cannot be considered reliable when we lack information about editorial control, etc. I see that the only fact cited here is the 1.2 million sales figure. I would have thought that this information could be verified elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it has "Blog" in the title, but it is used in such articles as Resident Evil 4 and the best-seller list. The site requires official approval before applicants are accepted, and any posts have to be based on press releases. Tezero (talk) 01:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll leave this for other editors to decide. If no objections raised, that's fine. Brianboulton (talk) 13:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Ost316

 * Prose
 * Some of the text seems disjoint or incomplete. Here are some areas that I noted and potential ways to clarify:
 * Sonic completes the story in the "Adventure" mode; the player can also select "Party" and "Special Book" modes seems as if it could use a bit more transition for the previous paragraph. Perhaps along the lines of, The game's story is completed in "Adventure" mode, with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player, unless players can only select those modes after completing story mode (in which case that should probably be mentioned, too).  Following this sentence, Party is not in quotes but Storybook is.
 * Rephrased to "The story occupies the 'Adventure' mode" to avoid passive voice. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe change Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances; they do not recognize him, and Shahra insists that Sonic's perception is mistaken to Though Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances, they...
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The explanation of Fire Souls should probably be separated from the rest of the sentence with a colon or emdash instead of a comma.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Add what it means to hold the Wiimote like a traditional controller: He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is intended to be held pointing sideways like a traditional gamepad.
 * I did "horizontally" because the way gamepads are held is how they are supposed to be held; it isn't considered sideways. Tezero (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I considered suggesting horizontally, but I've never played the game so I'm having trouble picturing which orientation it would be held by the player within the horizontal plane (is the d-pad to the left or to the front). Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think of the 'mote as being used as traditional gamepad when it is used similar to a NES controller. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right; that's how it is with this game. Thus, I conclude that I explained it well enough. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because I guessed correctly does not mean that it is explained well enough; I should not have to guess which way the d-pad goes. Do sources or the instruction manual refer to it this way with no clarification to orientation within the horizontal plane?  As Jinnai and Hellknowz point out below about wikilinking gamer terms, readers unfamiliar with a traditional gamepad or the wiimote may not understand what this orientation means. —Ost (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, but he boasts that he is immortal; Sonic reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. to During the battle, Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, who subsequently boasts that he is immortal. Sonic then reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp.  A semicolon doesn't seem to link the thoughts well enough.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Secret Rings is three-dimensional and uses the PhysX engine. seems out of place.
 * Slightly moved and rephrased. Tezero (talk) 22:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

—Ost (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for considering and acting on my suggestions. The article seems well-written and well-sourced. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by H3llkn0wz
Really nice reception, btw. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank for doing all the "other stuff"! — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

I know I am nitpicky and the collapsed box now spans several "scroll-downs". But I also respect the work you do to correct these after having already reread and rechecked the article time and time again! So don't get discouraged on this. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 00:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I appreciate your being thorough and willing to return more than once with more comments. Hopefully the article meets your standard for FAs. Tezero (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)


 * As per Jinnai, gameplay may indeed be shifting into crufty due to non-gamer explanations. I realize I contributed to this. To answer the issue, I suggest shortening the material. I'll propose a copyedit (with detailed comments) of the first part for now:


 * So "Sonic constantly runs..." or "Sonic is constantly running..." without "forward".
 * Changed to "runs along a predesignated path". Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That brings up more issues - pre-designated by whom? player/level design? pre-designated how? by some kind of markers, by road width/borders?— HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 21:44, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * By level design. It's just like any on-rails game: for example, in Star Fox, there's a predesignated path the Arwing follows. Except in this game, you get more control. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (Assuming above is not accepted) "He runs along a predesignated path by default" - this is a matter of preference, but "by default" sounds like a very mechanical language. Also it is partially redundant to "predesignated".
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right tilts his movement in the corresponding direction." -> "...players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller". This should be placed before jump/halt mechanics, as it is more important and directly relevant to his constant running. The "left/right" sentence is excessively wordy; I believe "tilt" already explicitly explains all that. I think saying - "Sonic constantly runs" -and- "players turn with Wii" fits nicely into a single sentence.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (skipped some text) Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons" - correct word and spell out. I used "corresponding" because it stuck in my mind from the tilt sentence. Although it still implies the same thing — there is a button to jump and a button to brake. You could add "respective controller buttons for these actions" if you really want to stress out that these buttons correspond to these actions, although I cannot see how that is not already obvious. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 12:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It's now "He runs along a predesignated path; players jump and brake using corresponding face buttons"; I think that solves it. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "He"->"Sonic" - just a little variety from "he".
 * Where? It says both "he" and "Sonic" many times. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "He is controlled... He runs forward..." -- I underlined in altered version. These comments were only about the above altered paragraph. This is nitpicking, so don't pay attention if you think this doesn't improve anything. It is my personal preference to repeat who "he/she/it" is so the reader can follow easily between many other facts.— HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 00:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Switched for a couple instances. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Next big thing is jump and brake(halt?) (and I would list these in that order, as jumping is far more Sonic style than braking). Button position on gamepad is how-to, so I would exclude it. I agree that saying this is done via buttons (as opposed to Wii motion) is important to distinguish. Also, does Sonic actually halt and stop or only slows down?
 * Trimmed. He does, in fact, screech to a halt. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "homing attack, a move" -> "special move" - reduce redundancy and removes the need to explain "homing" part unless it is really important? Are the words "homing attack" repeatedly mentioned in the manual?
 * Yes. Also, that's how the move is officially known throughout the series, as demonstrated here (although I couldn't cite that). Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "which propels him forward" - perhaps unnecessary? I think this is one of the least useful parts.
 * Reworded the clause after "homing attack" to "a mid-air move that targets and damages enemies in Sonic's path". Is that okay? Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "damaging any enemies in his path" - "any" is redundant; if it was not all enemies, it would be mentioned
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "Like in other games in the series, Sonic collects..." - newline preferred, this is a long paragraph and rings/live/checkpoints/levels can be seperated to a new para.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Jinnai

 *  Comments 
 * After further review I would have to Oppose it at this time. There are numerous problems with this article that I could easily spot.


 * Per Tezero I believehttp://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2008/03/21/the-3rd-party-wii-games-that-sold-a-million/ is not reliable. The page you use is as justification is first off not a very good page to use as an example and second other stuff exists is not a valid reason. You need to come up with a good reason why its used in this article since its clearly a disputed source.
 * I can remove it if necessary. I'd really rather not, though, because other than that the only sales in the article are 83,000 in the first month. I've been looking for better sales figures for a long time but come up with nothing. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I can sympathize with the problem as I have had issues with finding RSes for stuff, but that doesn't mean I can pull whatever sources I want to make an article. If you feel you want to keep it I suggest going to WP:RS/N and possibly WP:VG explaining the situation and see if anyone there can help determine if this is a valid SPS. 陣 内 Jinnai 18:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 19:06, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to agree with Tezero here, after looking at, which suggests a lack of accuracy and fact-checking, especially if they say anyone can come and chip in. –MuZemike 19:08, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not agreeing with me. Tezero (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * ThatVideoGameBlog is not a reliable source. There are only a handful of organizations that provide accurate chart data (NPD, ChartTrack etc), and they've not cited any of them.  The site relies on unpaid volunteers. - hahnch e n 08:45, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine. I'll remove it. Tezero (talk) 18:35, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Quote in the lead needs to be sourced as all quotes do.
 * I couldn't find which source said that, so I just replaced it with a different quote and cited that. Tezero (talk) 18:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Sonic earns experience points after successful missions, which advance him levels as in role-playing video games." - bolded section sounds like original research. 陣  内 Jinnai 16:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I could have sworn that was from a source. I guess not, now that I check again. Removed. Tezero (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Went through the article some more and found some other stuff.
 * You have an excess and arbitray number of links in gameplay section. I realize this is a video game, but you link to a lot off commonly used terms like boss while ignoring stuff like unlockable content. I basically think this section needs to be weened of most of the links except where they are core elements of the game. Boss fights don't appear to be that important as say Shadow of the Colossus. That one doesn't even link to it and you'll notice it has only a few links in gameplay. This also pertains to other sections such as linking to oil lamp which is not really relevant as far as I can tell anymore than the word people which isn't wikilinked. The reason I say to renove links is because of what many links posted near each other does.
 * The oil lamp is an iconic object in the original Arabian Nights. Besides, how often do you see someone walking around with an oil lamp? It's not a common topic. About the gameplay elements that are linked... about every game article does this, and for good reason: frankly, non-gamers do not always know what a boss battle or checkpoint is, for example. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Oil lamp is marginally questionable as it is key symbol of djinns and 1000nights. Many gaming terms, however, should be linked or explained. The audience is an intelligent general population reader and not necessarily a gamer, which video game articles often forget.— HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see a Famitsu rating. I would expect to see one for a Sonic game.
 * Such a review is mentioned neither in Game Rankings nor Metacritic. Why is it any more likely that Famitsu would review a Sonic game than any other game? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Because its akin to reviewing a Mario game or Final Fantasy game. It is a popular franchise. While GameRankings and such are good at picking up Famitsu's scores, they aren't perfect and I've known a few to slip through the cracks.
 * search results (using a custom RS search engine) for ソニックと秘密のリング ファミ通 or "sonic and the sacred rings" famitsu. I didn't check the sources, but there is quite possibly some info there. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A lot of previews/promotional coverage from Famitsu came up, as well as third-party summary stuff, but no actual reviews. Tezero (talk) 15:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * improper use of cquote. That template is used for Pull-quotes. Furthermore as this doesn't appear to be a long quote or paragraph, it should be incorporated into the paragraph and not use a blockquote.
 * It is a pull-quote now. If I just worked it into the prose, the paragraph would be too long. Tezero (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The plot section could use some prose cleanup such as:
 * Their enemy is Erazor Djinn, a djinn who aspires to erase the entirety of the Arabian Nights book. -using the word djinn to describe a djinn??
 * Changed to "genie"... is that better? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * While sleeping after reading the Arabian Nights, Sonic is awoken by Shahra. -rewrite
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Erazor opportunistically tells Sonic that he will remove the arrow if Sonic gathers the World Rings for him. If Sonic does not do so before the flame goes out, his "life is forfeit". - looks as though this should be one sentance
 * How should I combine? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well specifically that second sentance looks like a fragment. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * o keep them out of Erazor's hands, Sonic wishes for Shahra to do what she truly thinks is right, and she collapses to the ground. - you collapse "on" or "ontop of" the ground, not "to" the ground.
 * Done. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * These are just some examples that i could easily spot so don't take this as meaning that's all that's wrong with the prose.
 * Well, I did already get a copyeditor who seems to be pretty well-respected. He said the prose was good and that copyediting it wasn't difficult. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I know how you feel. I went through 4-5 such copyeditors in addition to many of my own to get School Rumble where it is. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

陣 内 Jinnai 21:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Gameplay section seems to get too WP:GAMEGUIDEy with giving explicit instructions on how to do various moves.
 * I did this because of other reviewers' comments about accessibility. What possible balance is there? Tezero (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The part taken from Scott Mariott is fine. Its the part taken from the instruction manual that is too detailed. See a good example for how MissingNo was handled (characteristics section). Basically don't describe in detail how to do moves or actions. 陣 内 Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't go and quote modes and other text like skills per MOS:TEXT. Outside of the quotes I don't see anything that needs special quotations around it to emphasize it.
 * Can someone check the stability and credibility of Sonic News Netwrok and make certain it doesn't violate WP:ELNEVER doesn't have problems with the open wiki portion of WP:ELNO.
 * File:Sonic wii.jpg - where was this taken? It may, and I'm not saying it does, have copyright issues if it was taken someplace private where not many pictures were taken or in a restircted area. Since it is inside a building and the user did not state where it was taken I'm raising this just to be certain. 陣 内 Jinnai 03:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like an exhibition, E3-like thing. The image description doesn't say. Tezero (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw you restored this image and I have to agree with Jinnai that there are probably issues with the image. Even if the location didn't have restrictions on pictures, the costume is a likely derivative work.  Moreover, I don't get what this image adds over a traditional screenshot nor why a picture of a tv screen showing the game would be have less restrictive copyright than a normal screenshot.  If the image is ok and is going to be used, it should be explained why it is being used in the caption; what I'm assuming is the Soul Gauge is the only element I can make out. —Ost (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Technically, it's a free image and is used on several other Wikipedias with no fair use rationale. I guess you're right, though. The source file doesn't say what exhibition it's from. Tezero (talk) 19:13, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Giants2008

 * Quick comment – Several references have the title in all capital letters, which is discouraged.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 18:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What? There isn't a single one that does that, and there are only a few that have anything in all capital letters. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Giants is referring to references 27, 38, and 39, which have titles with all caps. You should change the titles per WP:ALLCAPS to be in a "start case" format (the WP:ALLCAPS article should clarify things up). -- Nomader (Talk) 00:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok. Done. Tezero (talk) 01:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.