Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Spokane, Washington/archive3


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC).

Spokane, Washington

 * Nominator(s): G755648 (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

This article is about...Spokane, Washington, a medium-sized city in eastern Washington. This former railroad, mining, and timber town is Washington's second largest city and is the county seat of Spokane County as well as the metropolitan center of the Inland Northwest region. I hope you enjoy reading and learning about Spokane! G755648 (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose, suggest quick withdrawal —The nominator is not a major contributor and has made less than ten edits on Wikipedia, enough to assume that he is not familiar with the FA criteria and how the entire process works.--Retrohead (talk) 08:11, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I have edited this article and Wikipedia for years as an IP. Anyway, I do hope you come around, reconsider, and critique the article. That would be very helpful and I would like your opinion. I did read and was aware of the criteria before I nominated it. I know your concern is over this passage: "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to a nomination."
 * I dont think you should worry though. I think that is just a recommendation. I am familiar with the topic, editing, and the criteria that has to be met. I dont think that can apply to this case anyway because it doesnt look like there are any significant named Users to inform before I nominated it. I hope you and other users can be open-minded and less distracted by how recent the nominators account was created and judge it by the content of the article. A lot of people have worked hard on it and it shows. I believe if it doesnt meet the criteria that we can easily work it out so that it does. Thank youG755648 (talk) 02:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Comments - hmm, read this through while at the gym earlier tonight on my smartphone. I think it is pretty good comprehensiveness- and balance-wise (though I concede I don't know the city well enough to stake my life on that), but the prose needs some tightening. I will try and find and either fix straightforward stuff or list queries below, though sometimes if it is this loose it might need more than one extra set of eyes. Anyway..if you know the subject and can help with factual fixes or clarifications this might be a goer.Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:47, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The word "city" is mentioned four times in the first para of lead. Also, the fourth para should be merged into first para as content is similar - will also allow removal of repeated fact that it is the second largest city in Washington.
 * Done Good idea. It was tricky, but I like it better now.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * David Thompson explored the Spokane area and began European settlement - the "and began European Settlement" is redundant - repeated in next sentence. I was going to remove it but left it to you to figure how to rephrase the sentence.
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 04:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The last para of American settlement section is a bit laboured with the three sentences on railroads - surely this can be streamlined?
 * Done Combined the first two sentences and references which are very similar. Think the last one should stand alone since its a significant fact and has 3 references that we dont want to get jumbled up with the others.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * In the new century, Spokane is still reinventing itself to a more service-oriented economy in the face of a less prominent manufacturing sector - hmm, needs rephrasing, why not just "promoting" or "developing" a "more service-oriented economy"....?
 * I wouldnt mind that. I do like it the way it is currently worded with 'reinventing' though because I think it conveys more of a sense and reality that Spokane's transition hasnt been easy and it's struggling from losses. The recession that the last paragraph in the 20th century section was talking about saw the shutting down of the 2 aluminum plants from WWII and the loss of many jobs in the manufacturing sector (which isnt mentioned). They briefly mention the loss of those jobs a HistoryLink article, I think Ill put it in there. Let me know what you think.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Right, I've done this so far to trim some flab off the writing. There is more - look for repeated words in sentences or adjacent clauses. I have to sleep now - back later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I never noticed the redundancy, Ill keep an eye out for some more parts like the ones you mentioned. Right now Ive been working on the refs, looking for dead links and page migrations. Thank you for your help!G755648 (talk) 04:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You'll get better at it - one of the best things I've read since editing here is User:Tony1/How to improve your writing. Note that I don't mean make it too dry, there is a fine balance here.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * See, here are some more examples. The danger is that if an article is really flabby, I will stop seeing them after a while as I become used to the article. Still, I think we are making progress and will get some other folks to review the prose when I am done. I think the prose is tighter further down the article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you do get used to it after a while lol. Thanks for bringing your friends in to help, the more the merrier.G755648 (talk) 02:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Much of Spokane's history is reflected in its large variety of neighborhoods and districts. - see, I'd say this is true of any city and that nothing is lost by this sentence's removal - let the facts of the following sentences speak for themselves.
 * Done::: Removed intro sentence.G755648 (talk) 02:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Spokane experiences a four-season climate,... - I'd remove this as redundant in the culture section
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 02:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
 * In the fires' aftermath, 32 blocks of Spokane's downtown were destroyed and one person was killed - err, it was the fire, not its aftermath, which did these things.....
 * Fixed
 *  A more active way to see natural sites in the Spokane area include travelling the Spokane River Centennial Trail, which features over 37.5 miles (60.4 km) of paved trails.... - sounds a bit like a tourism brochure. Can trim to "The Spokane River Centennial Trail features over 37.5 miles (60.4 km) of paved trails....."
 * FixedG755648 (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 *  Spokane is served by a variety of print media. - pointless sentence. Would be true of all but the smallest towns. suggest removal
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 *  Crime rates in Spokane can vary greatly and differ depending on neighborhood.  - true of just about all cities. what would be more notable is a homogeneous city. suggest removal
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 *  Hostilities between the natives ceased and this opened the inter-mountain valley of the Pacific Northwest to the safe settlement of white people - "between" or "against" the natives?
 * Done. against..G755648 (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  Property crime is of particular concern in Spokane - let fact speak for themselves...I'd remove it.
 * Done.G755648 (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  In regard to the most common property crime in the nation, auto theft, Spokane had the fourth highest rate in the U.S. in 2010 and 2011 - why not just, "Spokane had the fourth highest rate of auto theft in the U.S. in 2010 and 2011"
 * Done. Good questionG755648 (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  Local and regional law enforcement agencies continually try new strategies, techniques, and technologies to address this issue. - I'd remove - sure this is going on in every city in the world about all sorts of crime....
 * Done.G755648 (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  The Spokane area offers an abundance of outdoor activities that can be enjoyed in outlying natural areas that may cater to a variety of interests. - I'd remove this - sounds like a tourism brochure. Let following sentences speak for themselves. No meaning is lost by this sentence's removal.
 * Done. Thanks, Cas!G755648 (talk) 03:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The various neighborhoods and districts of Spokane contain a patchwork of architectural styles and landmarks, - I'd truncate this to "The various neighborhoods of Spokane contain a patchwork of architectural styles,..." - otherwise sounds laboured....
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The phrase "cutting edge".....I'd change. Bit....hmmm.......I hate to use the term "unencyclopedic" but I reckon it is apt here.
 * Done Good point. I put "state of the art" in its place. G755648 (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  Another hotel with the intention of bringing convention business to Spokane is the new 721-room convention hotel across from the INB Performing Arts Center. - jumps 100 years in two sentences? This seems weird coming after the sentence with 1914 in it...
 * Done Never thought about that, it is a bit weird. That was included because Dr. Blofeld wanted some info on hotels, and that one will be by far the largest in town once opened. It was also a nice transition since they had the same intentions and the new hotel is owned by the same developer that saved the Davenport. I have taken it out for now since I think a mention of the Davenport as the most notable and well known hotel will suffice for now. If Blofeld has concerns, we can always add it back. If we do add it back, Ill try to make it less weirdG755648 (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  Spokane has a vibrant art scene... - I'd chop this out. I suspect there are many many cities that'd say this....just let the sentences speak for themselves
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 *  Spokane is large enough to have many amenities of a larger city, but small enough to support annual events and traditions with a small town atmosphere. - ditto.....
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2014 (UTC)


 *  Provisional impression - within striking distance I think. The sourcing looks ok and the article strikes me as comprehensive and balanced. I found quite a bit of fluff to trim in the prose and it's looking better, and I can't see any clangers outstanding. However I am cautious as once I read through a few times I too start missing things, so will ping another prose-analyser to take a look. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for helping out Cas Liber! You have a tremendous eye for detail and have done a great deal to clean up this article and make it better. :)G755648 (talk) 01:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Support on comprehensiveness and prose. I think we're over the line now and prose is tighter...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks again Casliber for your support and all youve done to help and make this article better.G755648 (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Crime rates- the figures in the table are derived from an FBI table of total crimes, not crimes per 100,000 as shown, e.g. 1,369 violent crimes in a population of 212,163= 645 per 100,000. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 08:03, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I see what youre talking about, but Im at a loss on how to fix it. If I could I would just take that note out but it looks like its embedded in the template. Is there something we can do to the template? I could change the source to the state UCR data for crime rates per 100,000, which is cited in the prose, but I would prefer not to since that template and source is sort of standardized on many city articles with a Crime section, including the Tulsa, Oklahoma and Hillsboro, Oregon featured articles which have the same issue. Let me know what you think is bestG755648 (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Same here- I don't know. It does seem a template problem. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 05:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I hope someone who can help finds out about that and updates it. Nice job noticing it.G755648 (talk) 01:26, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Image review
 * Per WP:ALT, alt text and captions shouldn't be the same
 * File:Riverfront_Park_Carousel.JPG: don't think this would be covered by freedom of panorama in the US. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:04, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Done Changed the alt so it isnt the same as any of the captions. Tell me if it still needs work or if I missed one. Took out the carousel pic.G755648 (talk) 02:20, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments – I'll read properly over the next day or so, but meanwhile two quick points on spelling: I've never seen "deaconess" with a double "n" (perhaps a UK-v-US thing) and "orthopaedic" rather than "orthopedic" looks more like BrEng than AmEng to me. Quite prepared to be told I'm wrong. More from me shortly.  Tim riley  talk    20:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Done You are absolutely right about the spelling of 'Deaconess', it is supposed to have only one 'n' and if you find one with two, it is a mistake and feel free to take it out; I took out the one instance I found in there. I dont know about BrEng vs AmEng on this, but the Shriners website uses "orthopaedic" so I just went with it. I do think "orthopedic" is more common and looks less of a mouthful though so Im going to change that too. Thanks for reading!G755648 (talk) 01:26, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The nominator has gently reminded me that I have not honoured my undertaking to look in again. I hereby promise faithfully to re-read the article and comment further here in the next day or two.  Tim riley  talk    14:49, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Good to have you Tim! Take your time and thank you!!G755648 (talk) 21:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I was asked to comment on the prose, and I am happy to say I think it meets the FA criterion 1a – I find the text engaging, clear and well put together – in short, a pleasure to read. As to the content I defer to Dr. Blofeld's wide expertise, but noting the nominator's reply to Dr. B's comments I incline to provisional support. A few points for the nominator to consider:
 * Hyphenation: I am no expert, but I see some phrases that I think could do with a hyphen, and I suggest you ask User:Chris the speller to look in: he has helped me greatly and often with hyphenation and countless other fixes.
 * Done. The kind sir gave it a nice look over.
 * Name of nation: "United States" is used 28 times and "U.S." 21 times. As far as I can see, as a European outsider, the preferred form seems to be "U.S.", and so perhaps some or all incidences of the two-word version might be trimmed to initials.
 * Done.G755648 (talk) 05:05, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * WP:OVERLINK: Wikipedia's rules are clear: a maximum of two links from any article to another: one link from the lead, and one from the main text. You have quite a few triplicated and quadrupled links. There is an invaluable and simple tool here that will help you fix this, and I'd say it definitely must be fixed before the article is judged fit for promotion to FA.
 * That's all from me pro tem but I shall watch the review and will contribute further if wanted.  Tim riley  talk    22:57, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help and support Tim. It looks like I will definitely be doing a lot of de-linking before this nomination is wrapped up to combat the sea of blue and Ill change as many of those 'United States' instances as I can. Thanks again!:)G755648 (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments This is my first stab at a review, so please be patient. In reviewing the lead, I think you might want to take the historical information from the last two paragraphs and combine them into one, and put the resources and notable institutions into its own paragraph at the end. Currently it seems a little disjointed to see the history start and move on to a new topic only to return later.Two kinds of pork Makin'Bacon 19:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed Good point. I shuffled some sentences around and now all the history comes before the other facts about its name and nickname and colleges. Hope you like itG755648 (talk) 02:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Pretty good article but I can't support an article which has such a poor coverage of architecture and landmarks. Cityscape should contain the bulk of the architecture and notable landmarks and be a separate section. It should be one of the longest sections in the article, yet it missing. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:41, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats a good idea, I will start working on this as soon as possible. However, I never thought to put that in there partly because I dont recall seeing many FAs with a section dedicating a whole lot to landmarks and architecture, could you show me some examples I can use as a model?? I know the Tulsa article talks a fair amount about it but I havent seen a whole lot of others.
 * Information about many of Spokane's landmarks are sort of dispersed throughout the article but most of it is in the Neighborhoods section, it should be very easy to bring this info all together and supplement that with some new content and put them into a nice section. Spokane has plenty to talk about on the matter and I look forward to making this section. A lot of the downtown is Romanesque Revival style architecture and a lot those buildings are Spokane landmarks. Im already brainstorming some ideas. I can also talk about Kirtland Cutter, an architect who started practicing in the city and holds the majority of his famous works as well. Again, if you could give me some examples of what youre looking for that would address the issue, that would be very helpful. Thank you!G755648 (talk) 21:43, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


 * See Copenhagen for an example. Now, naturally I wouldn't expect a similar coverage for Spokane, Copenhagen being a capital city, but I would like to see a sizable section covering the most prominent buildings in the city and coverage of the more notable registry places. I'd add a sizable Architecture sub section to the Cityscape section I've now created. You could discuss the Romanesque architecture downtown, when certain buildings were built and their architects. Then mention a few of the most notable mansions/houses in the area etc. In fact a separate article Landmarks of Spokane, Washington covering it in detail and a condensed summary in the main would be good. When wanting to learn about cities for me personally having quick access to the most notable features of a city architecturally is one of the main things I look for. I think having a solid section on Landmarks discussing most of them in one section instead of throughout the article is more convenient for those looking for a concise summary of the most notable buildings and features. There's nothing wrong with mentioning things like theatres and museums in Culture but I'd think the bulk of the main admin buildings, prominent hotels/houses etc and a general overview of architecture should go in a chunky section itself.


 * My first observation aside from the architecture is that the lede is poorly balanced and focused and tells me little actually about the city; it wouldn't even meet GA standards. Cut out all the info about population in the wider county, it's not relevant. You only really need to say something like "As of 2014 the city had a population of xxx with xxx in the wider metropolitan area" in one sentence, not a whole paragraph! Cut back a lot on the history and etymology and try to make sure something from each section of the article is mentioned in the lede. The reader will want an overview of the contents of the article, so you need to mention some of the landmarks, top sports teams etc. My feeling though is that this needs way too much polishing and improvement to really be a viable candidate right now. I'd withdraw it and get some experienced editors to look and it and try to improve it further and then nominate when we're all positive about it. I think it would benefit from some copyediting and a general polish which would result from several pairs of eyes reading and editing it. I may give this a full look later in the week and help you out.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:34, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I do like the idea of an architecture and landmarks section, Im surprised you dont see a section like that more often. Im glad that you pointed that out to me because that is one of the most interesting parts of any city or town that I like to know about too if I were to visit, knowing what the sites are important, even if its not a tourist hotspot. Ive made good progress on the section that is dedicated to landmarks and architecture and Im going to more or less talk about the architecture of notable neighborhoods in Spokane with emphasis on the downtown core, which is obviously the most relevant as well as talking identifying of the landmarks in other neighborhoods that stand out and are worth a mention. Also, I have created a paragraph that tells of the types of architecture that is most commonplace and listing some of the notable buildings that are of a particular style etc. I think I will briefly delve into city layout and its grid system, mention of the citys extensive skywalk network, and Spokane's very good record in saving and preserving historic buildings and its architectural heritage. I have dedicated a paragraph about Spokane's only real architect of note, Kirtland Cutter, and I talk about how he started out in architecture, rose to prominence, and the buildings hes done in town. I will put it in the article when Ive made it into a somewhat coherent piece, I will be trying to dedicate as much time as I can to get this done this week.
 * I will chop down the lead a bit, I do think it can be more lean without taking anything away. We can experiment with the Lead, its just a summary so nothing will be lost by doing some cutting. That is something easy to fix and we just need to find the right balance. As for the copyediting, I been working quite a bit on that lately as well some other reviewers here, I think we have cleaned it up real nice. If more copyediting is needed, this is the best place for it. I think that working on copyediting is the most commonplace issue here at the FACs and that is mainly what were doing here, sprucing up the article and trying to put the finishing touches on it so it can be brought up to spec. That being said, I welcome any help I can get and Im happy youre being proactive about it and going to take a look into it yourself. Thanks so much for reading!G755648 (talk) 01:31, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Looks pretty much what I was looking for, good job. Perhaps a few sentences on hotels and restaurants/cafes at the end of other notable landmarks would be good too. I have visited the city a while back and I must admit that the "Spokane's crime rate is also higher than average in both violent and property crime, having a rate higher than 98% of communities in the United States" really felt like it at the time, although walking through parts of NYC felt about the same. Walking through the downtown at dusk past gangs hanging out on the corners and the night in the motel was probably the most threatened I've ever felt in terms of personal safety and remember putting a heavy chair up against the door! The park I remember was quite pleasant though. Seems as Tim doesn't see any major issues with the prose perhaps it's best to keep this running then, but I can see some areas needing sourcing improvement. I've already added two sources. I'll try to give it my full attention tomorrow. I really need to take a careful look and read each aspect of it before I'm ready to change to support. Can you try to balance out the lede as I suggested in the meantime, I'm surprised Tim didn't pick up on that. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats an unfortunate experience at the motel and Im sorry to hear it. Good thing you didnt die, that would have sucked. The crime is supposed to be getting better, we can only hope. In the mean time, I suggest packing an Ak 47 for your next trip to Spokane lol.
 * Ive put off doing the Lead to work on the Cityscape section, Ive started working on that now, let me know what you think of it in the coming days. I will add a section about Cutter's Davenport Hotel, its been called "Spokane's livingroom" and Ill mention the convention hotel thats being constructed too right now. Ill try to think of a at least one other talking point to put in there to make it complete. Thanks for the work youve put in on the article. Im liking your changes. I do think the 'Walkability' section looks a bit oddly placed under the Dams section, but Ill get used to it I guess. Thanks again!G755648 (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed on the walkability, but I didn't think it belonged where you put it so moved it during the edit. I'd be tempted to remove it all, or in passing just mention it somewhere. Hopefully I can take a good look at this over the next few days.♦ Dr. Blofeld  18:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Can you replace historylink.org and some of the other sources in the history section to that site which appear to be essays and replace with some more solid primary book sources where possiblr? Just look in google books, should turn up plenty of replacements like this. I know the historylink site says "with a few noted exceptions, all essays and features on this site are original works prepared exclusively for HistoryLink.org by staff historians, contract writers, volunteers, and consulting experts. All essays and features are vetted by professional staff" but I think it would look better with a wider range of sources from books, like you've done more research. They just look more solid as sources.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:26, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think I have either added a book source to accompany a HL cite or replaced it completely with a book about 4 or 5 times throughout the article. The vast majority of the historylink cites are at the end of 20th century and 21st century sections and parts of the history section that deal with a very narrow topic (The Great Fire, Hillyard). G755648 (talk) 05:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Did you research this using google books? I think in quite a few places the sourcing could be strengthened and replace with books, there's quite a few places I can see where third-party reliable books etc could replace web based primary sources. Can you try to strengthen the sourcing using google books? I can help you with that if you like.
 * The Sports I think is one of the weakest and tells me little about sports in the city. I'm aware that several other American cities have tables like this but I think it would be best written in prose and you elaborate on some of them. When were they founded? What recent successes etc have they had? I'd make it look like more like the Education section and it'll look much better for it without the table and more information.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Done.G755648 (talk) 05:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Parks and recreation is way too long, needs to be trimmed by roughly 50%. If you don't want to lose any material consider creating a main article Parks and recreation in Spokane, Washington and chop it right down.
 * Fixed I think Chopped some off. let me know if its not enoughG755648 (talk) 05:05, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "The close proximity of the hospitals, doctors' offices, and specialized clinics scattered around this area form what is known as the "Medical District" of Spokane." -citation needed, looks like OR.
 * Done.G755648 (talk) 05:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think with a fair bit of polishing work and sourcing and content reinforcement this has the potential to pass. The basic material is there but it still needs a copyedit and that something extra to improve flow and avoid repetition in parts and improve the general quality.I've made a good start this evening, it's shaping up. If you're editing it in the meantime can you try to begin strengthening the sourcing to the best of your ability with quality book sources and replace a lot of those web sources, cut parks down and begin writing a nice section on sports without that ugly table? You can save time by pasting google book url into here. I'll resume tomorrow. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  22:41, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Im liking what youve done and how its turning out. I like how you split up the Housing and the public buildings section, nice. I might fiddle with the Lead a little bit, if you have concerns, just let me know.
 * I absolutely share your view on book sources vs web sources and I like traditional book sources better. Im happy to see this article uses a lot of books throughout, and uses more than most featured articles about cities, the biblio lists 13 books now with the addition of that Ware book you just put in there. Compare that to 2 on the Providence, Rhode Island FA, 1 that I see cited in the Erie, Pennsylvania FA, and a whopping 0 on the Tulsa FA. But, even so, I did try to find resources that I could use to replace some of them, but came up empty handed. The majority of the History section uses books, and the ones that dont are sections that are narrow in scope or use the Thumbnail article for the more recent events in the 21st century section. Thats the beauty of HistoryLink there, filling in the spaces between the books. That being said, HistoryLink is a really good resource on a broad range of Washington state-related topics and a wealth of information, its a state government supported Washington state encyclopedia and its been put to good use on this article as well as the Seattle FA article too. Since HistorLink is a solid source, this seems sort of like a cosmetic issue, especially since the encyclopedia lists all of their sources for each essay at the bottom. I do have to say that I like the idea of keeping at least one instance of most of the articles on there so the reader has the option to learn more if they wish to. We want the readers to learn as much as they want and I dont think it hurts to keep one in there so they can have access to it. I think that strikes a nice balance.
 * I didnt do most of the history section, Ill see what books I can find as some alternatives. I only added in recent years editing irregularly as an nonstatic IP the Kensel sources. and I will see what I can do to get some more book sources to replace the HLs if I can. I own the Stratton book, Ill see what I can scrounge up and yes, feel free to help if you can :).
 * I see what you mean about the Parks and Rec section and the Sports section. Ill start working on those real soon. I think the Parks section goes into too much detail, and I think I can cut it back a good deal. Ill take your advice and ditch the table, its not important and if someone wanted to know about it, they will take the time to scan the section for what they want. Its a work in progress but it looks like its getting better! Thank you again.G755648 (talk) 02:32, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Definitely much improved thanks to our combined efforts! The balance now I think is perfect. Let me give this my full attention again on Monday.♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:16, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad to have you back! look forward to working on this with you again. Thank you for your continued interest and your contributions, they are very much appreciated.G755648 (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Crisco comments

 * The local economy has traditionally been based on natural resources, being a center for mining, timber, and agriculture; however, the city's economy has diversified. - should have a time frame
 * Fixed Put a date on when the diversification seemed to have happened, by the 1980s according to Schmeltzer.G755648 (talk) 01:44, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Great Fire of 1889 - worth a redlink?
 * Done I think soG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The first humans to live in the Spokane area arrived between 12,000 to 8,000 years ago and were hunter-gatherer societies that lived off the plentiful game in the area. - A summarized version of this would have been really useful in the lead, rather than keep a Euro-centric view
 * DoneI like that ideaG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * What's the Spokane tribe's (or other Native American tribes') view of Wright and the battles?
 * I will see what I can find about this...G755648 (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The first American settlers in the present-day city" - perhaps "The first American settlers in what is now Spokane"
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Make sure that terms are linked on first mention, and not otherwise.
 * Is this a MoS rule? Since we can only use one link due to the MoS, its important to use it where people would most expect to see it I think, so Ive been linking some of the links in the section that talks most about the subject matter. I didnt want to assume that people will read each section sequentially. Sometimes people only want to read a certain section. For instance, we mention Kirtland Cutter in the History section, but the link to his article is in the Architecture section, where we talk about him at length and where most people will probably gain enough interest to jump into his article. Let me know what you think about thatG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * and 36,848 in 1900 with the arrival of the railroads. - Didn't the NPR reach Spokane in 1881?
 * Yeah it did, but it was followed by the Union Pacific, Great Northern, and Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific railroads too.G755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * So "arrival of the railroads" can't be correct, as there was at least railroad there for several years (and another followed before 1900, right?)
 * Done Ah, I see what you mean, thats right. We are going to have to say 'the arrival of additional railroads' or something. Ill work on the continuity issue with the jumping around later.G755648 (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Inland Empire - This doesn't strike me as an encyclopedic term
 * The "Inland Empire" isnt a contrived term, it is what the region centered around Spokane was commonly called and the term still isnt too uncommon today. Youre more likely to hear Inland Northwest though. The article defines this term in the Topography section. The term is used in the source material and I think using period terms brings the history more to life and makes for more interesting reading. Let me know if using it is a problemG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the only other time you use this term beforehand, it is in quotes. Losing the quotes gives a different impression. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed I thinkSo, youre saying that since its been defined already I can lose the quotes? If so, Ill change it to ..."capital" of the Inland EmpireG755648 (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * a dramatic building boom - Dramatic feels a little weasely and POV. "boom" is already giving the same impressions.
 * Done


 * Spokane's growth continued unabated until August 4, 1889, - why are we jumping around, from 1900 to 1910 to 1889 to...?
 * Done Relocated those sentences to a place that makes more sense.G755648 (talk) 01:44, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * the West - might want to be more explicit, for non-American readership
 * Done Good ideaG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, we get it, the rates were really high. We shouldn't push a POV with so many adjectives.G755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed I think I took one out- if youre talking about the rail freight rates. I see what you mean, it is a significant point though. According to what Ive read, it really hurt the economy for decades.G755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * After decades of stagnation and slow growth, Spokane businessmen formed Spokane Unlimited, an organization that sought to revitalize downtown Spokane. - When?
 * FixedStratton doesnt list a specific date for the formation of Spokane Unlimited, the book says it happened in the 'early 60s' so I put that down to be faithful to the source.G755648 (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * becoming the smallest city yet to host a World's Fair - as of?
 * FixedSentence and language was a bit confusing. It was the smallest city when it hosted the Fair in 1974, thats what the sentence is supposed to get across. As for being the smallest city today to host a Worlds Fair...Spokane isnt the smallest anymore.G755648 (talk) 02:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The success seen in the late 1970s and early 1980s once again was interrupted by another U.S. recession, in which silver, timber, and farm prices dropped. - again, when?
 * Im not quite sure what I can do on this one and I have to say I dont have the book with me. But, I personally thought that 'late 1970s and early 1980s' was pretty specific (in my mind this would narrow it down to 1977-1983ish- a 6 year period)...the whole US suffered from that recession in the late 1970s, would you like me to put the dates the slump occurred nationally? I think it would probably simply amount to us explicitly saying what most of us are probably already thinking though...that it occurred from 1977-1983, which would be the late 1970s and early 1980s... Let me know what you think is best for the article and Ill see what I can doG755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not worried about that part of the sentence, but rather the recession which interrupted the growth. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Done Whoops, I got a bit confused. Again, I dont have the book in front of me, but the recession that is mentioned would be the Early 1980s recession that apparently started in July of 1981, I will put that date in the sentence.G755648 (talk) 03:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Last several paragraphs of #History gets pretty POV (sounds like promotional copy). This is particularly true of the 21st century section — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:37, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I did find one thing that stuck out, and that I took out ...there is an air of optimism for the city's future- I can see how you might think that is promotional, but Im not seeing any others sentences that would be promotional too much of a concern, could you show me an example of what you are seeing and why you think its promotional?
 * What I see are examples of this 'downtown rebirth' that the article talks about and that has been happening since 1999. The 21st century section is about what has been happening over the last 15 years, pretty recent history, and I (and HistoryLink, the source for most of this section) would say reversing the deteriorating downtown is the most notable thing to talk about in Spokane today. This downtown renewal is still happening and relevant today, with the current building of a 721-room convention hotel and yet another expansion of the convention center. We can only wait and see what the events of today will have on the overarching history of Spokane, but for now, we can only report what we see.G755648 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sentences such as "Although a tough period, Spokane's economy had begun to benefit from economic diversification; being the home to growing companies such as Key Tronic and having research, marketing, and assembly plants for other technology companies helped lessen Spokane's dependency on natural resources." strike me as very marketese, for lack of a better term (like what I'd see from a commercial press release). Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, but I'm not too sure this and similar wordings are encyclopedic. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * OH, I thought you were talking about the 21st century section.
 * Although Im having a hard time seeing the problem, Ill see what I can do to try and fix it. It might be a matter of picking the right words, but the section doesnt use any POV and opinion describing words that are typical of things that would bring up promotional and POV flags to me. I thought that section was actually gloomy if anything (with the exception of the one sentence you brought up about diversification that you pointed out), its talking about losing family wage jobs and further down talks about scarcity of high-paying jobs, pockets of poverty, areas of high crime, and a sense of doubt regarding aspects of city government. Strikes me as very honest and NPOV for the most part.
 * Fixed I thinkChanged sentence to:  Although this was a tough period, Spokane's economy had started to benefit from some measure of economic diversification; growing companies such as Key Tronic and other research, marketing, and assembly plants for other technology companies helped lessen Spokane's dependency on natural resources.

Thank you for reading and helping out!G755648 (talk) 02:33, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I think though that the 20th century to present has way too much on economy and general development. I think it would look better with reinforcement in the history with some actual events. Perhaps you could get hold of some books like "Early Spokane". A great place to start would be the timeline here. Try to cover as much of it as you can. I'll resume tomorrow with that if you don't make a start on it. The history section for me is the weakest now. If we can try to report more events and improve the balance from just economic development we should get there.♦ Dr. Blofeld  17:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we can do a bit better on that. Ill see what else I can think of in the the coming week or so. It would make it seem a bit less mechanical and all business. The economic history is comprehensive and well covered and that is the meat and potatoes of any history section. With any settlement, history and economy go hand in hand and that is what all the books focus on so it can be tougher to find those nice little side notes that happen along the way, but Ill try to remember to look through some stuff and see if I can find something worth noting. I think you've done a good deal of addressing the issue so far. If there is any event in particular that you think is worth mentioning, let me know and Ill make a write something up about it. For the time though, I am working on the recommendations in the list above. Thanks again and glad to have ya back.G755648 (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * More coming. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * 47.39 North latitude and 117.25 West longitude - Is this necessary in-text? We've got templates for putting this information at the top of the article and in the infobox. If we do keep this in-text, can we lose the latitude and longitude? It's already clear from the degrees North construction.
 * Done Yeah, Id agree, we can lose it.G755648 (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The lowest elevation in the city of Spokane is the northernmost point of the Spokane River within city limits (in Riverside State Park) at 1608 ft; the highest elevation is on the northeast side, near the community of Hillyard (though closer to Beacon Hill and the North Hill Reservoir) at 2591 ft. - I think this should be with the other information about the elevation
 * Done Moved the sentence so it is right after the sentence that lists the elevation of the city.G755648 (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Columbia Plateau ecoregion ... basaltic Channeled Scablands steppe ... Rocky Mountain foothills - Per WP:SEAOFBLUE, we should have some plain text in between these links (this is an issue elsewhere too)winningest
 * DoneDelinked ecoregion, basaltic, foothills and steppe..G755648 (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * "winningest"? Is the Sports section a SEAOFBLUE too?G755648 (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Do we need all this information on Spokane county?
 * DoneGood point, TMI. Im getting rid of the info about the nearby townsG755648 (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Duplicate links: Oregon, Race and ethnicity in the United States Census, Coeur d'Alene, Palouse,  Key Tronic, Expo '74,  Riverside State Park, Spokane Falls,  Mt. Spokane Ski and Snowboard Park, Mukogawa Women's University, Mead,  Spokane Valley,
 * Im having a hard time trying to find some of these duplicates. Tim told me about some script to use, but I dont know how to use it and I didnt want to mess anything up. If you find a duplicate feel free to remove it and do what you want.G755648 (talk) 04:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * a full-power radio station that provides its service area with progressive perspectives, providing programming to diverse communities and unserved or under-served groups. - Another very POV-y sentence (marketese)
 * FixedGood catchG755648 (talk) 04:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * state and county government documents or state- and county-government documents?
 * FixedIm not sure what the difference is so Ill just put "government documents"G755648 (talk) 04:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Spokane County Library District - why no further information, if you mention it?
 * ReasonMentioned so you know its there and it exists. Only mentioned because the Spokane County libraries are all outside the city itself and I didnt want to diverge from the main topic. I think in depth coverage of the county libraries should be mentioned in the side articles.G755648 (talk) 01:44, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Spokane is home to many higher education institutions. - how many?
 * Concern The answer to this question really depends on what you consider 'higher education'-which is a sort of a slippery slope with the many options you have nowadays-can we really definitively answer this question? I dont want to pick and choose and frame the context of discussion based on my views for the readers. Id rather name the notables and show them some of the variety that is offered.G755648 (talk) 05:42, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Mukogawa Fort Wright Institute - I don't think we should link to Fort Wright in the middle of an organization's name
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 04:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * winningest - I know some people stand by this term, but I'm sure there's something else that we can use, a more standard English word
 * Done "successful"G755648 (talk) 04:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * A lot of the information on the Spokane Indians would be better for an article on the team itself. We don't need to know about the 1946 crash, for instance. The #Sports section should be much more recent in its focus
 * Done Deleted sentence and reference


 * af2 - What is this?
 * Done arenafootball2 league.


 * Sports Travel Magazine worth a redlink? Then again, if it's a really minor or local publication, this shouldn't be mentioned.
 * Its OK I thinkI dont think we need a redlink here. Its not local and nobody reading this article will know much about it. The magazine is from Los Angeles.G755648 (talk) 04:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Interstate 90 - should be linked above, when you mention I-90
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 04:41, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Over the past decade, - beginning when? This is a relative time modifier, and would work better as "Since 2004" or something which does not change over time
 * Done I took out the text and slightly changed the sentence, its not really needed.G755648 (talk) 04:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Today, - which is...? See WP:PRECISELANG, as this seems to be a common issue.
 * DoneDeletedG755648 (talk) 04:25, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Through service is a legacy of BNSF Railway's old Spokane, Portland and Seattle Railway trackage.- I've read this four times and not gotten your meaning. Is it meant to be related to Amtrak?
 * Fixed I think its clear now. Yes, The tracks that lead to Seattle and Portland were built by the SPS Railway, which was then bought by the Great Northern and then BNSF-which is what Amtraks uses.


 * 4,800-acre airport - give hectares too?
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 05:26, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Felts Field is a general aviation airport serving the Spokane area and is located in east Spokane along the Spokane River. Felts Field served as Spokane's primary airport until commercial air traffic was redirected to Geiger Field after World War II. - expand a little, rather than have a two-sentence paragraph? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like Ive got more than enough ideas to start making this article better thanks to you and Ill be working on this probably over the next few days or so as time permits. Thank you for the taking the time to review this Crisco!G755648 (talk) 04:03, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Done Went into a bit more detail.


 * Still working through
 * a position which it wrested from Cheney in 1886. - if the people of Spokane were armed when doing this, "wrested" may be an understatement
 * ClarificationAccording to the article, it was actually the Cheney citizens who were armed. It says in 1881, after a close recount of the votes to determine the county seat, the Spokanites claimed the county seat, but then the armed Cheneyites came to take it back. It wasnt until 1886 that it was permanently transferred to Spokane, in a peaceful manner.


 * The most prominent politician in Spokane, and arguably Washington, - I'd quote someone here. This is an opinion, which means it should not be in Wikipedia's voice
 * Done I think it is a matter of fact when seen in terms of rank in Congress, nobody from Washington comes even close to Speaker of the House and third in line to the Presidency, but I have rephrased it.G755648 (talk) 02:50, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Spokane operates Washington's only waste-to-energy plant, as well as two solid waste transfer stations in the Spokane area as part of the Spokane Regional Solid Waste System, a collaboration between the City of Spokane and Spokane County. - Do you need "in the Spokane area"? I think it's implicit
 * DoneG755648 (talk) 04:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The Monroe Street Hydroelectric Development site has the distinction of being the oldest hydroelectric generation facility in Washington. = this should have a reference that is not related to the city
 * Fixed Couldnt find one after a brief search so Ill just take it out.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * there were 208,916 people, 87,271 households, and 49,204 families residing in the city. - sounds almost as if they were separate
 * Those are just relevant facts and figures from the census that most any city article has, I dont think we are really supposed to find relationships between the figures.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * 34.2% of all households were made up of individuals, and 11% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. - sentences shouldn't start with numerals. Several further examples under this one
 * Fixed


 * Link the different religious branches/movements?
 * Done


 * in recent decades. - again, a more concrete term would be preferable
 * DoneI think someone else got to it before me, Im not finding those words in the article.


 * Russian and Ukrainian - are they combined in the source? Considering recent events, I feel wary combing them here.
 * Justification The source used and any other source would talk and lump them in as a single group (in this case as "Russians-Ukrainians"). I dont think we should concern ourselves with the politics and troubles between the two countries in Europe, these are just facts; they both would identify as being part of the Spokane Slavic community. I dont think the tensions in Europe spill over into the communities in Spokane anyway, the communities are pretty integrated by now.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * urban blight and the preparations leading up to Expo '74 led to its eventual demolition - the Chinatown or the Asian community? One does not demolish communities, after all
 * Fixed Clarified. Noticed and fixed the source link, it was going to the wrong encyclopedia article.G755648 (talk) 04:05, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * For newspapers, you can use the work= parameter to avoid having to force italics with single quote marks (it's formatted automatically)
 * Good tipCant use it in this instance because looks like it automatically creates a link to whatever is in there and we already used up our one S-R link.
 * That's odd... the template shouldn't do that — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Done The article roughly describes the triangle area, I included it in the sentence.G755648 (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * a sizable area downtown - how sizeable?
 * Thanks again CriscoG755648 (talk) 04:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * That's it for today. I'll do the remaining two sections (Culture and Cityscape) tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

DoneG755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Done I thinkG755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC) DoneG755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC) DoneG755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Question Am I allowed to talk about the character of the neighborhood or are you concerned mostly with the second part of the sentence?? Im thinking you might want that sourced, so I have put the Hillyard thumbnail reference there just in case, despite my concerns of citation bombardment. Second part now reads: Hillyard has become a home for much of Spokane's growing Russian, Ukrainian, and Southeast Asian communities. Let me know if that is a still 'marketese'.G755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC) Fixed I thinkG755648 (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * the Victorian-era style - would the Victorian-style be simpler? Link?
 * Again, link on first mention
 * Queen Anne and early Craftsman styles - Link?
 * strategically placed outside Spokane city limits to avoid "burdensome taxes." - I think this conveys the same information even if we lose "strategically"
 * Many of the former town's houses were built to house railroad workers, many immigrant laborers working in the local yard, who gave Hillyard an independent, blue-collar character. Hillyard still caters to new arrivals, becoming a popular home for Spokane's growing Russian, Ukrainian, and Southeast Asian communities. - another case of what looks like marketese
 * Built in renaissance and Spanish revival style, the Davenport Hotel cost two million dollars to complete, and was state of the art at the time of opening in September of 1914 with its opulent interior, chilled water, elevators, and air cooling. - again, the marketese is seeping through
 * Also of note is the Spokane County Courthouse in West Central (the logo of Spokane County) - What about the Monroe St. Bridge?
 * Addressed We mention its in the City of Spokane seal when we talk about Cutters worksG755648 (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

DoneG755648 (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Also of note is the Spokane County Courthouse in West Central (the logo of Spokane County), the Cathedral of St. John the Evangelist in Rockwood, Benewah Milk Bottles in Riverside and Garland, Mount Saint Michael in Hillyard, and the Cambern Dutch Shop Windmill in South Perry, which was built in 1929. - for the sake of consistency, I'd lose the "which was built in 1929"
 * Some of the most notable parks in Spokane's system are Riverfront Park, Manito Park and Botanical Gardens, Riverside State Park, Mount Spokane State Park, Saint Michael's Mission State Park, John A. Finch Arboretum, and the Dishman Hills Conservation Area, a 530-acre (210 ha) protected area established in 1966 immediately to the southeast of Spokane, which contains a mixture pine and fir forest and aspen groves. - Two things: if they are all "the most notable", why are some not linked? Also, why is the Dishman Hills Conservation Area given so much weight (in the same sentence as a list of others?)
 * 1)It used to but I delinked it because "Mount Spokane State Park" doesnt have its own article so its in the Mount Spokane article, we already used up our one link for it in the Topography section.
 * 2)Done I dont know. Took out the elaboration for DishmanG755648 (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


 * including a Skyride that is a rebuilt gondola lift that carries visitors across the falls from high above the river gorge. - a skyride or a Skyride?
 * Done "skyride" I thinkG755648 (talk) 04:22, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


 * the most notable of which is the Spokane River Centennial Trail, which features over 37.5 mi of paved trails running along the Spokane River from Spokane to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. - of course the source is going to say that, as it's related to the trail. Alternative source?
 * Done Googlebooked itG755648 (talk) 04:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)


 * There are also many natural areas where outdoors activities can be enjoyed close by. - more marketese.
 * DoneDeleted.G755648 (talk) 02:59, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The closest of these is the Mt. Spokane Ski and Snowboard Park, operated by a non-profit organization. - what does the NPO have to do with the city? It's irrelevant in an article on the city itself, except to give a positive impression of the park.
 * Done Deleted.G755648 (talk) 02:59, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * considered somewhat lacking by some, - By some is not good
 * Done I included the organization that holds the viewpoint. Switched out archived link to the new siteG755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * The Spokane Jazz Orchestra is a non-profit organization formed in 1962 that claims to be the nation's "oldest, continually performing, professional, and community-supported 17-piece big band." - again, promotional
 * Done DeletedG755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * seek to provide the public with new and innovative ways to learn about science, technology, engineering, and math- marketese
 * Fixed I think now reads: seek to generate interest in science, technology, engineering, and math among the youth in a hands-on experience

Done G755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * the Bing Crosby Memorabilia Room at the Crosby Student Center of Gonzaga University, - by all rights Crosby should be linked on first mention
 * are also of note. - more POV
 * Done Sourced to a googlebook.G755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Spokane was once home to a sizable Japanese community centered in what was once Spokane's "Chinatown." - irrelevant here, as you've discussed it already above
 * Done Deleted sentence.G755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I do not mean to assume bad faith, but it would be a good idea to declare if you have a conflict of interest in regards to this article. The constant positive POV suggests that this is very likely. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I didnt write most of the article. I am working to try to fix the issues just as you are-thats why I am taking your suggestions to tweak these sentences. The issue is being resolved, please be patient while I work through these edits. I will say I do live in Spokane, I am not being paid to edit this article and I am trying to use reliable NPOV sources.G755648 (talk) 02:59, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose for now owing to the constant, sometimes glaring, positive POV in this article. The crime section is barely remembered by the time one gets to the glowing "Culture" and other sections. This POV needs to be purged before I support. For instance, Robert Lee Yates and the Death of Otto Zehm are both fairly recent and reached national prominence (there are several books about Yates), yet are not in the article. I'm not saying they should be, but there is the possibility that negative aspects of the city have been left out or downplayed. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A couple additional points: I'm not convinced by the quality of the sourcing (several sentences were unreferenced, and many others are cited to less stellar sources), and if I'm not mistaken a previous review found issues with close paraphrasing. I'd like to be sure these are dealt with. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

DoneCrime section has been supplemented with information about Spokane's most notorious serial killer and about recent incidents of officer involved shootings.G755648 (talk) 04:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thorough review. I will try to dedicate as much time as I can to work on the issues above over the weekend, since I might be getting more busy next week. The bulk of the POV/marketese sentences were always most likely to be in the Culture section, and Ill comb that whole section looking specifically for those POV sentences and tweaking the language so it sounds less promotional. I see most of the POV sentences that you listed are clear, but the reasons behind others not so much..Ill elaborate on the questions I have as I go through them in the coming days.
 * As for the Crime section, I thought that was pretty NPOV, and gave a good overview of the overall situation. I didnt know that coverage some cases of individual crimes would be necessary. I will expand the section talking about the officer involved shootings (using Otto Zehm as the talking point) and probably mention what is being done to try to prevent them in the future (body cameras, etc). I might briefly mention some of the serial killers that have garnered attention in Spokane such as the South Hill rapist and Yates. When I looked at the Youngstown, Ohio, Providence, Rhode Island and Tulsa featured articles, I saw they dont go into that kind of detail, but I do see that the San Francisco, California article does mention some notable cases and it might not be as unusual as I think. In regard to the sourcing, I need some additional information to act on and fix the problem. If you could give me examples of what you are seeing and list some of the ones you would like re-sourced to something else with a brief reason why you think the source isnt ideal, that would be great. Some of the sentences that you tagged as 'citation needed' I thought would fall into the realm of You don't need to cite that the sky is blue, but I think what I saw is probably only for the good article criteria:"direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons". Ill grab a source and put them in there. As for the citations that were there at the start of the FAC process, I got a chance to look at many of those as I was updating the refs looking for linkrot and double checking the book pages to see if its the right one, and I havent seen many significant issues with the references so far; almost all the sources are there for all to see, so if you see one let me know. Thank you again for critiquing and helping the article!G755648 (talk) 03:30, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A good rule of thumb might be to avoid using local newspapers when RSes from outside Spokane are available, and I'd really like to see "History link" replaced with something a bit more solid. Still concerned about that fairly minor magazine award. Stuff like that. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:00, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What magazine award? The Sports event of the year?? If you are concerned with it I can take it out if you likeG755648 (talk) 03:44, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That would be nice, yes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Historylink seems fine to me. HistoryLink.org according to the website is an "evolving online encyclopedia of Washington state and local history. It provides a free, authoritative, and easily accessible history reference for the benefit of students, teachers, journalists, scholars, researchers, and the general public." It is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit corporation that "With a few exceptions, HistoryLink essays are fully sourced, bylined, and dated to provide authoritative references for legal, journalistic, and scholastic use...With a few noted exceptions, all essays and features on this site are original works prepared exclusively for HistoryLink.org by staff historians, contract writers, volunteers, and consulting experts. All essays and features are vetted by professional staff" The website originally only covered the Seattle area but was expanded state-wide and is one of the primary sources for the Seattle featured article. Each essay has their sources are listed at the bottom of each essay in great detail. You can see these above the essay's author . All the text is licensed under the Creative Commons license. HistoryLink is one of the primary sources used in the Seattle featured article.G755648 (talk) 02:59, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * That's nice, and you're right: the website isn't as bad as I thought it may be. However, it is still predominantly a local (and thus possibly COI) resource. For instance, the article you link to is by Laura Arksey, a member of the Spokane historical society, whom you appear to cite predominantly for general information, information which may be found in more traditionally reliable sources that are not related to the city. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As a side note: HistoryLink has been discussed at the reliable sources noticeboard twice (1, 2) but the feedback is contradictory. I'd prefer stronger sourcing. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I quite agree with you on the sourcing to the local history site, I always prefer solid book sources (which are available) for a lot of them. Overall now I think the coverage is getting there but as you say the tone in parts and sourcing lets it down. My gut feeling on this was to withdraw and to get a few pairs of eyes on the prose and try to overhaul the sourcing and then renominate after a peer review in which we're all fairly content with it for FA. It's achievable, but I think there is too much needing doing and overhauling to make this worth keeping open. It's definitely improved a fair bit from when it was nominated though. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  11:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I see your concerns about HistoryLink since it isnt a slick website and might look amateurish compared to other sites and since it is on that noticeboard, but that first time I dont see anybody raising too much of an issue over it and the second one shows someone not opposed to using it. I would like to you to be open minded and take a further look at it though. Also, I dont think I would consider it a "local" source, although some of the authors are local historians-Jim and Laura it looks like, not all of them are (David Wilma, Kit Oldham, Cassandra Tate are historians from Seattle, which is where Historylink is based), and their sources come from solid sources such as books etc are cited at the bottom of the essays they write for HistoryLink, so location isnt too relevant. Arkseys Great Fire article cites 4 books and a periodical . Jim Kershner (born in Denver if that matters) is an accomplished author who has written a few books and has won national awards in journalism, and Arksey is a published author as well. The reviewers of the Seattle featured article must have determined it was a reliable and reputable source even though HistoryLink is a local to Seattle. Im not sure if being from a local organization would completely discredit that organization as having a conflict of interest, these people are professionals (they arent armchair historians from Wikipedia); for instance, if it was a California encyclopedia and staff historians from UC Berkeley were writing an article for HistoryLink on San Francisco, I dont think anyone would have a problem with that. Simply being local shouldnt mean there is a conflict of interest or discredit a person or organization or book, we are dealing with professionals here. The writers of that area are almost always going to be locally or regionally based, thats natural since the topic is relevant to them. I havent seen any POV issues with HistoryLink and that makes sense because it deals only with history (Washington state history), and doesnt make comment on things such as culture, which can naturally lends itself to some POV issues if not done by a professional. Luckily, Historylink is written by qualified and professional staff authors and historians, some which hold PhDs and for their works, All essays and features are vetted by professional staff. HistoryLink has been reviewed in the past by the people who did the Seattle FAC and FAR, and they thought it acceptable, Im not sure why its receiving so much scrutiny here.

If you have any questions about them I encourage you to contact them with the information below from their site: Research Inquiries: admin@historylink.org Education Team: education@historylink.org Office: eleanor@historylink.org''
 * As for the tone, that has been much improved since Crisco scoured the whole article. I think I have completed every one of those suggestions Crisco recommended and I am keeping an eye out for other tone issues if there are some left. I dont think it should be too much of a problem now since Crisco did sweep through the whole article. The tone issues were for the most part easy to spot and primarily confined to the Culture section, which like I said is naturally the place its going to occur. Although a problem, those issues are by far the easiest to fix, most of them take only a second to lop off a part of a sentence or take out a word, etc. I am inclined to keep this open for the time being for us to look things over. If you see any more tone issues, tell me about them, but unless you see a lot more of these marketese sentences, I would say its sort of a non issue now-but Like I said, Im keeping an eye out for them.
 * Would like to again thank you both and the others who have taken the time to look at this article. Its getting better thanks to our efforts!G755648 (talk) 20:38, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's starting to look better, but I'm still concerned about HistoryLink. You cite its essays 33 times, a solid 12% of your citations are to the website. It's still a local history society, and thus may have a COI for things related to the city (including their position on urban renewal). Hence why I've asked several times for more independent sources, at least for FAC. On individual features in the city, HL would probably be fine, even at the FAC, but I'm doubtful if it should be relied on as heavily in an article on the city. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:13, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks for keeping an open mind. I really dont think HistoryLink is a bad reference though, and I think it would be a huge detriment to the article if we lose that resource needlessly so Im going to try to address as many issues with this as I can. I think you are missing the point of some of what I said up there. This seems like a straw man fallacy, everyone keeps saying its a local source like a broken record, but it isnt.
 * HistoryLink is not a local organization, it says where they are located at the bottom of the site: 1411 4th Ave. Suite 803, Seattle WA 98101. I was also saying that even if it was I dont think it should matter because it is unaffiliated with the community (HistoryLink lists its sponsors at the bottom of the page as well-its very transparent like that.). Not that I hold such a mistrust of this organization that I believe they are concerned with the civic pride of the communities they are writing about It also has professional historians and authors that are reputable people and would be considered in their own right a respectable source. Dr. Blofeld added one of Jim Kershners books (hes one of their staff historians) in the article, and now I see he is questioning the reliability of the source's (Jim Kershner) essay he wrote on behalf of HistoryLink. Whether he knows it or not, he has been adding references to the article that he himself has spoken against. He also sourced the Whitman Massacre section to the City of Spokane, which I definitely take issue with because it is not a reputable source for things related to history. This doesnt make sense to me.
 * I would also like to highlight again that although these reputable staff historians are writing these essays, they themselves are not the source of the information. They have consulted works from other historians and academics to write these essays. I will list a sample of what we can all see since I dont think anybody has really given this much of a chance and bothers to look at the links I provided before...Now, if we go to Kirtland Cutter's article titled Cutter, Kirtland Kelsey (1860-1939), Architect: HistoryLink.org Essay 115 by Kit Oldham (I looked him up, hes an attorney and historian from the Seattle area if that matters to you), go to bottom of the page, and you can see under "Sources", the materials that he has consulted to write the information that WE are going to use for the wikipedia article. This is what I see:

''Sources: Henry Matthews, “Kirtland Kelsey Cutter,” in Shaping Seattle Architecture: A Historical Guide to the Architects ed. by Jeffrey Karl Ochsner (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1994), 78-83; Henry Matthews, “Kirtland Cutter: Spokane’s Architect,” in Spokane & the Inland Empire: An Interior Pacific Northwest Anthology ed. by David H. Stratton (Pullman: Washington State University Press, 1991), 142-177; Henry Matthews, Kirtland Cutter: Architect in the Land of Promise (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1998); Edward W. Nolan, A Guide to the Cutter Collection (Spokane: Eastern Washington State Historical Society, 1984); ); Larry Schoonover, email to Laura Arksey, April 4, 2009, in possession of Laura Arksey, Spokane, Washington; Tony and Suzanne Bamonte, Spokane, Our Early History (Spokane: Tornado Creek Publications, 2011), 250-251. Note: This essay replaces an earlier essay on the same subject. It was expanded slightly on October 27, 2011.''
 * As you can see, there are several books in there. If you like traditional book sources, this essay includes information from them. Some of those books are cited in the article, Stratton in particular. Now I will say that when Blofeld asked me to try to get some of those HLs to books, I did so for the ones that I had access to-some of the HistoryLink references are actually doubled up to a book source to provide the reader the ability to learn more about the topic, which I think is important for verifiability-they can actually see it themselves. But, some of those I dont have access to and almost nobody but a historian with the resources that HistoryLink has can access them. I would say those books are solid sources, even though some of them are published locally...problem? I dont think so, were dealing with professional historians here, not a tourism board.
 * I would like to point out, that HistoryLink not only writes online essays, they have themselves published many books as well with UW Press if you look at their website...they are writing about the community that they live in, Seattle, Washington. I will just list some here:


 * Power for the People: A History of Seattle City Light David Wilma, Walt Crowley and the HistoryLink Staff (2010 History Ink with UW Press)
 * Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition: Washington’s First World’s Fair (2009, History Ink)
 * The Fairmont: The Story of a San Francisco Landmark (2006, for Fairmont Hotels & Resorts)
 * Moving Washington Timeline: The First Century of the Washington State Department of Transportation, 1905-2005 (2005, WSDOT with UW Press)
 * Bellevue Timeline, 1863-2003 (2004, City of Bellevue with UW Press)
 * The Story of Union Station in Seattle (1999, for Sound Transit) The War Years: A Chronicle of Washington State in World War II (2000 in association with the University of Washington Press)
 * I think HistoryLink has been utilized to that extent that it has because it seems to be deemed by many of the people in the wikipedia community as a reliable source. It is utilized even more so on the Seattle featured article which has gone through 3 FAC/FARs and not once do I see any issue of this being brought up and it seems like an injustice in terms of consistency in the wikipedia community that one article can utilize this source as reliable for almost a decade, but here in this one instance, one reviewer deems it so inadequate it cannot be used for a FA. It has been on the noticeboard twice, but neither time did anybody say it was unacceptable and not OK.. HistoryLink as an organization is independent, hires professional staff historians from a variety of fields, has access to a wealth of information, and is verifiable, vetted and fact checked by staff, transparent, and they even have given their essays a Creative Commons license. I really dont know what there is not to like about that. Its like they made it for wikipedia. I believe it is a reliable source by wikipedia standards. Now, I have not seen any issue with HistoryLink as it pertains to POV (the main issue that you have with Historylink it seems, since you believe it is "local"), but according to what ive been looking at on wikipedia it says:

''Sources themselves do not need to maintain a neutral point of view. Indeed, many reliable sources are not neutral. Our job as editors is simply to summarize what the reliable sources say. and this A common argument in a dispute about reliable sources is that one source is biased and so another source should be given preference. The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the writer's point of view.''
 * I have some other questions, if a local source is not to be trusted, why dont you arent you scrutinizing the Spokesman-Review, or Strattons book (not published in Spokane-but still in the region...Meinig is from Palouse, WA-is what he writes POV and suspect too?) These are the questions that are popping up. If you cannot use anything that is local because of a potential conflict of interest, then writing a comprehensive article for something as significant as a whole city would be almost impossible unless its maybe New York City or a place that truly has global significance. This discussion has gotten way longer than I ever expected it to go, and Im sorry for writing a book in here..but I wanted to state my case for HistoryLinks inclusion. I believe it is an excellent resource.
 * I would like to know how you feel about the sourcing of the rest of the article. Do you like the Crime section now? I added info about Yates and Zehm. I have also been reviewing the Culture section for POV sentences and I found a couple more, but I think it rights right now. Let me know what you think. Thanks again for your input!G755648 (talk) 22:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * A local press is a bit more trustworthy than a local website, IMHO. Either way, I'll strike my "oppose" above, but I cannot in good faith support with such an (over)reliance on the source which may or may not be reliable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:34, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Re: the noticeboard. One of the two discussions consisted of negative feedback; it's not like the source has never been questioned. Also, the Seattle article was promoted in 2005. Things have changed quite a bit since then. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Although I dont understand the insecurities since it is again not a local website, I respect your view on HistoryLink and I am thankful that your are not going to kill the FAC because of a single source. I still want to address your issues to the best of my ability and work with you on this; I value your opinion. I hope the HistoryLink discussion hasnt turned you off to your participation here. I am like you, I would rather cite the book that HistoryLink uses rather than HistoryLink itself, but its hard to use 100% books. I wish I had all the books available to me so I can write this whole thing with books, but I dont have the resources, time, or money to gather all those materials...but luckily the 40 staff historians at HistoryLink do. The sections that we use it for in the history section are mainly in the sections that have an extremely narrow focus and subject matter or are in fairly recent history, so recent that I dont think many books have been published about those events. Its filling the sections that we cant find a book for basically. You said you didnt mind using it in all cases, if you tell me which ones you have the most issues with, I will do my best to source them to something else.
 * Also, Just as a note, it is true the Seattle article was promoted in 2005, but its last of 2 featured article reviews was in 2009 and I dont think wikipedias policy that I pointed out above on using sources with a POV has ever changed. Anyway, you said you were worried about the sentence about the recent downtown renewal in particular before, I found a book through Google called 'Urban Tourism and Urban Change: Cities in a Global Economy' By Costas Spirou to source that sentence to now. I will include it. Thanks for your insight CriscoG755648 (talk) 01:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a good start (for the other thing, though, I should note five years is still quite a while in Wiki-time). If the source reviewer approves the use of HistoryLink, I'll support, but until then I'll wait on the fence. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:44, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

G755648, can you mention some of the actual notable houses which might be registry buildings in the residential section?♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, that sounds like good idea since we talk about the Davenport in the Commercial section, it will give it some balance. I think Ill probably talk about the Campbell House, it is part of the Museum of Arts and Culture. Ill try to get working on that after I get done working on the fixes Crisco is recommending. Nice job with the edits!
 * Ill probably be using these sources for the section unless I find something better when I get to it. and

G755648 (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "known at the time as "Spokan [sic] Falls".": Drop the [sic]. Per the article, "the "e" was added in 1883". [I got that one - Dank (push to talk)]
 * The [sic] was put in because people reading it often see that its missing the 'e' and think that its a typo. Hopefully that doesnt keep happening..G755648 (talk) 23:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "Spokane tribe": Spokane People uses the word "tribe" exactly once in the text, preferring "the Spokanes". We don't have to walk on eggshells over the name, but if the Spokanes prefer not to be called a tribe, then they aren't a tribe. The word can be ambiguous, because many readers think of a "tribe" as a group of not more than around 150 people, but even so, I have no problem with the word if the Spokanes want to be known that way.
 * DoneWhatever the reason, if they use 'the Spokanes', I will use that terminology to. It may not have much significance, but I want the article to be agreeable to the most people as possible and its an easy fix. Ill try to switch the language to 'The Spokanes' wherever possible.G755648 (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "white people": Some think the phrase isn't idiomatic. White men is, but that is seen by some as sexist, and sometimes it's just wrong. You use "Europeans" in this sense ... but is a person whose family has been in North America for 300 years a European? How about a white person whose family was never in Europe? I don't know. I'll throw this into the pile of things I don't know to handle, yet.
 * Lol, definitely some questions I dont know how to answer. It used to read just "whites", but that didnt seem clear enough to me some how...change it to whatever you think is best.G755648 (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "1883 to the late 19th century": 1883 is the late 19th century, so this could mean anything from a month to 17 years.
 * Done Good catch. He lists the year when most of the rushes stopped by, 1892.G755648 (talk) 01:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "subject to mass migration by blacks": This wouldn't be my choice of language. Was it primarily black men or black families, at that time?
 * DoneHmm. The book says 'black settlers' came from Roslyn. They were miners, but Im sure they brought families. The book talks about the women during the time too so it must be both. Ill put "African-American"G755648 (talk) 01:50, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I've made it down to 20th century 21st century, so far. - Dank (push to talk) 20:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for looking at the article Dank. Ill probably wait until youre done to do the fixes for most of these, its easier that way.Glad to have your help!G755648 (talk) 22:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Continuing. You have dealt with my comments so far. "a sense of doubt regarding aspects of city government": Per WP:WORDS, either leave it out or say something specific. A specific problem should illustrate the general problem.
 * "it will blend residential and retail space with plazas and walking trails": WP:CRYSTALBALL. Kendall Yards is cited to ref 67, retrieved 2008, but a search on that page gives no hits for Kendall. Assuming the cited source supported this sentence back in 2008 ... okay, did those things happen?
 * FixedI will take out the sentence on city government since, Im not exactly sure what its referring to-I think it might be a loss of confidence in the police but I cant say for sure. I found a different reference that supports the Kendall Yards sentence, a 2010 Journal of Business article. The Kendall Yards project is still happening and I think it will take decades before its fully complete.G755648 (talk) 04:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "of which, 59.25 square miles": I changed it to of which 59.25 square miles
 * I got down to Crime. There was a lot to do, so I'm not going to have time to finish, I hope someone else can pick it up from there. - Dank (push to talk) 21:02, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks!G755648 (talk) 04:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * One more thing: the general rule at FAC on expandable collapsed boxes and scrollboxes in the main text is: don't do it. I know that climate data tables are sometimes hidden in articles, but I just had a look at some other geography articles that are FAs (I stopped after Ann Arbor, Michigan, Antarctica, Australia, Bath, Somerset, Belgrade, and Biscayne National Park), and none of them hide any table in the text by default, including the climate data table. - Dank (push to talk) 23:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Done Well, if it is allowed, I would like to keep the table. It has useful info on it that many people would be interested in. I will definitely expand it like the Ann Arbor article. Thanks for your time Dank!G755648 (talk) 04:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, it looks fine, and the other edits are fine too ... as long as the Kendall Yards sentence is accurate. - Dank (push to talk) 04:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Continuing. The cite to the 2012 figure in Crime was "retrieved in 2011". (Also, check my edit there, I guessed that the date on the first sentence was also 2012, and I guessed a date of 2010 after that.) - Dank (push to talk) 22:25, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Everything you did looks great. The American Community Survey was for 2008-2012, you guessed right for the Crime section figures. Ill just change that real quick and its good.G755648 (talk) 04:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)


 * This time I got down to Economy. I don't get the sense that anyone read the text closely before this was submitted to FAC (there were a lot of mistakes), which is one of the FAC requirements. I won't oppose, but this nomination will probably fail this time around without some help by reviewers. Look over my edits to make sure they're right, and try proofreading the text starting at Economy. Best of luck. - Dank (push to talk) 22:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. Nominating the article was sort of an impulse, I originally registered just to nominate a featured picture, and that all. Thought doing the article might be worth a shot and my effort and I dont really plan on using this account after this FAC closes. If it passes, thats fantastic, if it doesnt then maybe someone else will finish it some day down the road.
 * The prose is probably the toughest and most common issue in the FACs and if the article can use a more thorough copy edit, maybe I will tap someone to look into it. I dont think I have the expertise to do it well enough, Im not a grammar and punctuation whiz. There has been some new content that has sort of been hastily integrated in the article. Ill do what I can though. Thanks again DankG755648 (talk) 04:37, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. - Dank (push to talk) 04:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Continuing. I haven't checked the sources, but the last paragraph in Economy feels tacked on and promotional, and it restates (and to some extent contradicts) earlier material.
 * Fixed I thinkTook out the information about the two companies that relocated to the area (one isnt even operating anymore) and the info about the 'Terabyte Triangle'. Kept the info about what industries are trying to be developed and about the business incubator.G755648 (talk) 00:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "rated by Forbes as one of "10 Transformed Neighborhoods" of note in the U.S.": When?
 * Fixed Deleted. Forbes doesnt have a date for it that I could find, its just one of those lists that they always do. I Dont know why thats there, it sort of stops the flow and distracts from the purpose of the sentence. I dont like using Forbes for much, the website is poorly designed, slow, and is chock full of ads.G755648 (talk) 01:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "the Hillyard neighborhood came about due to James J. Hill's Great Northern Railway yard": it replaced the rail yard? It sprang up next to it? When?
 * Done 1892. Clarified; the railyard he created was Hillyard, it was a sort of a company town.G755648 (talk) 01:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "West Central (the seal of Spokane County)": I'm thinking that should be "seat", but better would be to delete it since you've already said that.
 * DoneActually its supposed to read 'seal'. The section focuses on landmarks and architecture and the distinctive building is the symbol of Spokane County.G755648 (talk) 01:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Changed it to "the building on the seal of Spokane County". - Dank (push to talk) 02:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "Restaurants of note in Spokane include the Asian Ming Wah Restaurant, Ginger Asian Bistro and Sushi.Com, Atilano's Mexican Food, the Italia Trattoria, The Elk Public House and the Palm Court Grill Restaurant at the Davenport, which serves "North-West inspired cuisine".": What makes any of these restaurants "of note"?
 * FixedI suppose because they were mentioned in a book; I took them out.G755648 (talk) 01:33, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "six neighborhood aquatic centers": I moved that up one sentence, so please check that the ref covers it. I couldn't combine refs myself because ... there's no ref at the end of that paragraph, which is usually a problem at FAC.
 * Done Added another ref to the specific Parks and Rec page that deals with the info on the aquatic centers.G755648 (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "The Spokane Pride Parade held each June draws gays, lesbians, and others in celebration of the value of diversity.": I went with: The gay and lesbian Spokane Pride Parade is held each June. I'm as pro-diversity as you're likely to get in a copyeditor, but there are several things wrong here from a copyeditor's viewpoint, including the tone. Since I'm axing the occasional promotional tone above, I need to be consistent and do it here, too. - Dank (push to talk) 22:29, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Looks good.G755648 (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "in the vicinity of the Thor/Freya interchange": Almost all external links go in one of the end sections, not in the main text.
 * Done Removed external link.G755648 (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Assuming you'll attend to those things: Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 22:54, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for supporting and the time youve put in here Dank!G755648 (talk) 02:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure thing. - Dank (push to talk) 02:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * WELL! Hi there. User:G755648 asked me to give the article a look-see and pick up where User:Dank had left off— I suppose because I'm in the Guild of Copy Editors— so I did that. But I forgot to look at this page till just now, when I finished my editing.
 * Though I've gone beyond simple copy-editing, in looking for some better references and so on, I haven't tried to clear everything up. In particular, there's an apparent contradiction that I've written up on the talk page, and asked WikiProject Washington and the Eastern Washington Task Force to help with.
 * Anyhow, please take a look at the article now. Here's the cumulative diff. --Thnidu (talk) 08:18, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Thnidu, I noticed that contradiction too and was going to look into that before I took a little break. Im glad you mentioned it because I might have forgotten. I saw Blofeld added that in by replacing a Schmeltzer citation that said the economy stagnated in the 1910s and and improved very little in the 20s (which the Demographics chart seems to indicate-10.6% growth from 1920 to 1930), I checked out that page that its referenced to (Creighton p 83) to see what to make of it and I think it is talking about construction specifically since the book is titled 'Bridges of Spokane' and less about economic growth in the town. Ill put the original sentence and reference back in so its consistent. Might be able to find another reference in Stratton for that information too.G755648 (talk) 22:51, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
 * DoneOk, I looked at it and I think it looks fixed now. It was actually a Stratton citation, so I just put it back and I added a bit more content just for FYI I guess to explain the situation at the time.
 * One more thing. I'm a linguist (language scientist), and this sentence in the lede section ran up a red flag for me:
 * (Spokane means "children of the sun" in  Salishan .)
 * As I wrote to an old grad school friend from U.C.Berkeley:
 * The link is to the "Salishan languages" article, so this is like saying "Gare du Nord means "north station" in Romance"  [instead of specifying French] , if not even "... Indo-European". No source was cited. I found two and added one of them, https://beta.spokanecity.org/about/history/; the other is http://spokanetribalenterprises.com/history/.
 * Neither was particularly specific or scholarly. So I figured I'd ask somebody more likely to know.
 * ... that "somebody" being my friend, who lives in Vancouver, Washington, and did his graduate work on Salishan languages. And he wrote back:
 * I'm in Panama right now.
 * But every single so-called meaning of a Salish place name, every single one that I've heard or seen, is total fabrication on the part of some white man who was quoted because he was there before the quoter.
 * I'm forwarding your message to a friend of mine in Seattle who's done a lot of research on place names.
 * I haven't heard from the Seattle friend yet, but I expect far more reliable information on "Children of the Sun" than anything we can find on the Net. (Although the fact that spokanetribalenterprises.com/history/ is one of the sources I found for the name is rather encouraging.) --Thnidu (talk) 08:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats interesting stuff, let us know what you find out about the placenames. I will link the 'Salishan languages' to Montana Salish language, the specific dialect I think. Do whatever you think is best with those sentences on 'children of the sun', youre in your element there. Right now the sentence that we have is this in the History section:

The Spokane tribe, after which the city is named (the name meaning "children of the sun" or "sun people" in Salishan),
 * If you or your friend can point us to a better resource for that sentence, thats great. I am going to move the reference that you put in the Lead so it is next to the Phillips reference though. The Margin of Style says that youre not supposed to have any references in the Lead since its just meant to be an executive summary of the entire article. Thanks Thnidu!G755648 (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * As I mentioned on your talk page, I've looked through all your edits, and you did really great work, I've just made a few tweaks, with explanations in the edit summaries and on your talk page. I've started up copyediting again where I left off, at Economy. I won't be long. - Dank (push to talk) 16:21, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I took a little break for the holidays but Im back and Ill be trying to work on the issues you guys have been looking into. Thank you the help you guys and thanks for joining us, Thnidu.G755648 (talk) 22:25, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Thnidu, about the 3 Jewish congregations: there probably are only 3, but the 3 refs you give (on their main pages, at least) only establish that 3 congregations exist, not that others don't, so I added "at least". I also added "2014", since readers would be likely to think the information comes from 2010 otherwise, and per one of our guidelines, WP:DATED. Thanks for looking that up and adding it. - Dank (push to talk) 21:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments from SandyGeorgia
A FAC running for two months? I am loathe to get drawn in to extensive reviewing on such a long FAC, but there are clear problems. One sample: We have "still" with no as of date, and the source is a 2005 article, last accessed in 2008. So, that information has been in the article for six years? Another as of date missing on dated info: Another sample, from a 2008 source: That is six years old. Another 2009 source: No "as of date", and an old source already.
 * Spokane is still trying to make the transition to a more service-oriented economy in the face of a less prominent manufacturing sector.
 * The top five employers in Spokane ...
 * Economic development in the Spokane area primarily focuses on promoting six industries: manufacturing, aerospace manufacturing, health sciences, information technology, clean technology, and digital media.
 * Spokane Public Schools (District 81) is the largest public school system in Spokane and the second largest in the state, serving roughly 30,000 students in six high schools, six middle schools, and thirty-four elementary schools.

The problem with city, state and country FAs is how fast they become outdated, so this sort of thing should be carefully checked before promotion. These are samples only. I suggest withdrawing the FAC, and carefully reworking everything to update, is the fastest way forward. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 20:32, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for looking at the article Sandy. I would like to say I did carefully look over and updated all the references and checked for dead links, and verified that the source still backs up what is written in the article in the beginning of the review process, feel free to look them over yourself and let me know if you see one that I may have somehow missed or something. Id imagine the references have been gone over by many of the reviewers here and I think its pretty safe to say that all the references to these sites in the article should be active and not dead and are that the information is still there to back up the sentences. For instance, Spokane Public Schools/District 81 is still the largest district in Spokane and the second largest in the state according to the website and the sites "old" accessdate may be 2009, but the information is still valid in 2014 and I will put an "as of date" on it. I have to say that I didnt really update the accessdates when I was going over the refs, I will work on updating those so it wont confuse people. Also, I would like to say that in an ideal world we would all mostly likely love to see a 2014 current source for every citation, but it isnt always possible for everything and we have to make do with what we have available on some occasions, as long as it is consistent with what the rest of the article is telling us and it is again, still relevant, I personally dont see a problem with that. In the big scheme of things, this is still very recent history and updated history books on the topic of a mid-sized city like Spokane dont come by as often as they would a place like Los Angeles, Atlanta, or Denver, etc. This situation would be the case for the Spokane is still trying to make the transition to a more service-oriented economy in the face of a less prominent manufacturing sector. sentence. Although that article was written in 2005 (although this one looks like it hasnt, HistoryLink does update its articles as new information becomes available-see the Kirtland Cutter one for example -> it shows in the sources section "Note: This essay replaces an earlier essay on the same subject. It was expanded slightly on October 27, 2011."-if Spokane developed a modern, 21st century economy or if Microsofts HQ relocated to Spokane-they would update that article), the information still rings true to this day. Everything leading up to that sentence sort of points to that being the case and I would like to point out and mention that Spokane isnt a fast developing, cosmopolitan, dynamic place like Atlanta or Denver, etc. In Strattons book (the Meinig piece of the anthology), I was reading that Meinig mentioned another historian described the city as "warmed over 1930s" in the 1970s...things develop much more slowly in smaller cities like Spokane. The economy is still sort of flat. I think I might be able to find a Stratton citation that can back that statement up, but it would also be from 2005...I will try to find an updated reference if possible though. In regard to the The top five employers in Spokane ..., that may have been accessed in 2011, but the information as I said looks still valid, the site says that the information came from the  "Journal of Business - 2013 Market Fact Book". If you still believe this to be a biggie, could you please work with me and show me the specific sentences that you would really like to see with a more updated source so I can get one, only you can tell me what youre seeing.


 * I agree though that it is a long FAC, but still not the oldest lol. Its a long article and we had to do a bit of copyediting since I was never really preparing or expecting to take a big project like this on. This article is now over 150,000k with 263 citations and 27 or so book sources. City articles are often some of the longest articles out there and they cover a whole range of topics and everybody has their specific thing that they want to see in the article-its so hard to satisfy everyone, but were trying. I will start updating the references so it looks up to date. Again, thanks for looking at the article and for your insights!G755648 (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Updated reference accessdates I have updated the accessdates for all the sites that I thought were a bit too old. As I said, above, I already combed the references for deadlinks, page redirects, accuracy, etc at the beginning of this whole process and everything else that wasnt there at the beginning was obviously added and accessed recently. Let me know if there is a straggler, and feel free to edit the article yourself too. Thanks Sandy!G755648 (talk) 01:15, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Graham Beards (talk) 15:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.