Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Steve Bruce


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:43, 4 October 2008.

Steve Bruce

 * Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk)

I've been working on this article on and off for what seems like about two years, constantly getting distracted and wandering off onto something else. I've now finally knuckled down and got it to what I feel is FA standard, feel free to agree or disagree :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.setanta.com/en/UK/
 * http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=71937-qqqx=1.asp deadlinks
 * Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * setanta.com is the website of Setanta Sports, one of Europe's leading sports TV networks. And examiner.ie is the website of The Irish Examiner, a daily national newspaper in the Republic of Ireland.  I see no problem with either as a reliable source -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:24, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, early morning typo. Didn't mean to question the Examiner, just point out that it deadlinks. Corrected above. And I'm in the heart of the Midwest in the US, I'm not always familiar with European news networks, thanks for the explanation! Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The deadlink has now been removed, the sentence in question is still referenced -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually I've just found the new URL of the Irish Examiner piece, so I'll put it back in........... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

comment - I am unconvinced Image:SteveBruceAutoBio.jpg meets WP:NFCC#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 13:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You're probably right. I've now removed it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments - First off, assuming that they check out, I love the pictures. It's so rare to see a free photo from the 1980s here. That said, I'm a prose and MoS reviewer by trade. Let's see if there's anything to fix... My main advice is to audit for overlinking, because I'm catching a lot of it. A run-through for hyphens couldn't hurt either, as I'm seeing a few places where they could be added. One example is "twelve point" in 1995-96.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 03:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Early life: Second Newcastle United link isn't needed.
 * Playing career, Gillingham: The season links don't need to be piped anymore. En dashes are now in the titles. About time the soccer people made that change.
 * Another Newcastle United link in there.
 * Also an extra Football League Cup link here. And one for old Wembley Stadium.
 * Manchester United: "was described in 2006 by the then United captain, Gary Neville, as the best in the club's history." "then United" needs a hyphen, I would imagine.
 * "with the result that Bruce captained the team..." This seems strange. How about "which led to Bruce captaining the team..." I don't like which or the somewhat passive voice, come to think of it. You'll have to find something better, I guess. There's a reason I'm only a reviewer.
 * "championsip of English football since 1967." And they've gone on to many more championsips since. :-)
 * "at a time when Premier League rules restricted the number of foreign players which a club could include in its team." I'd really prefer "that a club could include in its team", as again I'm not a big fan of which.
 * Extra Chelsea and Everton links. Also a Newcastle link again.
 * "having agreed a contract valued at..." Missing word here.
 * Both the photos from the 1980s were taken by myself, so they're definitely OK. And I'm just in the process of correcting the various typos, etc, in another window :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I will say, however, that the season links do in fact still need to be piped, otherwise you'd end up with things like "Bruce spent the 1978–79 in English football season in Gillingham's reserve team", which reads like complete garbage...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:54, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Linking it as 1978–79 season might make it clearer. Oldelpaso (talk) 07:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, I'm back to offer more comments.
 * Picky, but a space between references [59][60] [61].
 * Later playing career: "which fuelled rumours that the manager was to be dismissed..." Is "fuelled" British English? Not sure about this one yet. At least I know rumours is good.
 * Style of play: "He was well known for carrying on playing even when injured..." Don't think the double ing reads that well. How about "He was well known for continuing to play even when injured..."
 * Early managerial career: "The team continued to struggle at the start to the 2000-01 season,..." Tos are repetitive. I'd replace the second with of.
 * Return to Wigan Athletic: The linked date in here should be removed.
 * Other activities: Comma after autobiography? (don't mean the book, which already has one; I mean the word.)
 * That's all from me.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 19:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the further comments. Yes, "fuelling" rumours is perfectly good British English.  Everything else I'll fix tomorrow morning, right now my wife wants to get online :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * All fixed now, sorry for the delay -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments. Chris, the lead suggests that someone new should be brought in to copy-edit the whole text. It has promise as a nomination.
 * "spell"—makes it sound as though it's a real let-down for him; "term"?
 * changed
 * "Bruce was rejected"—the reader is tossed and turned back and forward chronologically. Can you iron it out, and alter the paragraph boundary too?
 * changed
 * "and becoming"—remove "and"?
 * changed
 * Comma after "field", probably.
 * changed
 * "England" piped to the "English National Football Team". Is this hidden link wise? Readers are likely to spurn it as one of those useless links to commonly known countries.
 * changed
 * "has been described as one of the best English players of the 1980s and 1990s never to appear for the national team." Since this is an ironic turn of phrase, I wonder whether "described by blah" might be better (citation not needed here in the lead if it appears further down). Otherwise, it sounds as though WP is being ironic, which is just a little POV and informal for us.
 * changed
 * "Spells" again. I think of a spell in prison, or in the classroom corner.
 * changed
 * More chronological jumble?
 * can't see where, could you elaborate?

My eyes strayed further down: "with Gillingham chasing promotion from"; see this. Tony  (talk)  12:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Late in the 1992-93 season, Bruce scored twice in a 2-1 win over Sheffield Wednesday (the winnier coming in the 96th minute). This was hugely significant to Man United's title win (it was the game that saw Ferguson and Brian Kidd dancing and celebrating on the pitch before full time). Probably worth a mention? ArtVandelay13 (talk) 14:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * changed -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Further to the above, I've asked other editors at the football project to provide a fresh set of eyes on my prose..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * .........and the article has now been copy-edited by User:Kevin McE -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Mention made -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Support - With all my issues taken care of, this earns my support. I particularly like how his playing career is given appropriate space. It's easy to overlook this when writing about an active manager. Good job on it.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 01:44, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * "Bruce was among five former Premier League players signed by Birmingham manager Trevor Francis to add experience to a squad expected to challenge for promotion." I think you ought to say what division Birmingham were in either here or the last sentence of the previous sentence.
 * There seems to be a slight inconsistency between styles for division names e.g. First Division or Division One.
 * You might want to check for overlinkage. I've removed a couple of repeated links myself.
 * "Birmingham made a slow start to the 2006–07 season in the Football League Championship and, after a 1–0 defeat at home to Norwich City, the team's fifth consecutive match without a win, there were calls for the manager to be sacked." Were these from fans again? Or from other people too?
 * The prose looks good and the article is extensive. Peanut4 (talk) 13:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * All points addressed now, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Support - Above points addressed and it meets criteria 1, 2 and 4. I'm not particularly good at reviewing images at FAC, but as long as they're fine, I have no problem supporting this article. Peanut4 (talk) 14:03, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Why did the nominator cap the comments from me and Peanut? They're resolved, but it sets a bad precedent. Only the reviewer should be capping comments, and it should rarely be used anyway.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 02:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed them. Giants, if you come across this in the future, please feel free to remove them yourself; it's stated clearly in the FAC instructions.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 06:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops, sorry, saw it for the first time on another FAC and thought it would make the page easier to read, nothing untoward was intended -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, happens all the time. They cause a Template limits problem in arachives so we have to keep them to a minimum; you may have seen one from Ealdgyth, because I've asked her to continue using them, as her source reviews are often lengthy.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 06:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Conditional support with some things needing to be fixed. 1. Captions are long, cut them to just what they are depicting. For example "Bruce lifted the Premier League trophy on three occasions." should just read "Premier League trophy", and the body of the text should be responsible for explaining why its important. 2. The "Life outside of football" should be renamed "Personal Life" with no subheadings (all merged into one). Ottava Rima (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Support but I'm not 100% happy with text squashed between images - some of the cup images are a little arbitrary - I know they're in to brighten up the overall article but avoid squashing text... And couldn't you simply say "League" instead of "Football League/Premier League" in the summary of his appearances? And " rifle through his dustbin" is a little tabloid for me... Otherwise, great work. No senior caps. What a crime (and that's a Tractor Boy talking...) The Rambling Man (talk) 16:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.