Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Strapping Young Lad/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 18:14, 29 April 2008.

Strapping Young Lad
Self-nominator I've been working on the article for a couple of months now, it has been peer reviewed, I hope it's ready to become featured. Gocsa (talk) 22:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Yeah it is "ready to become featured"! This is a fantastic article! I left a pretty nice review on it peer review and all concerns were addressed. Phenomenal article. Nice to a another metal band on here. Burningclean  [speak]  22:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * What makes http://www.comomusic.com/ a reliable site?
 * Yeah, I'm trying to use it as a ref to back up the fact that the album became a fan favorite despite it's poor sales and reviews at the time of its release. Maybe the other ref (the interview) is enough, and this one can be deleted.


 * Likewise http://www.metaleagle.com/?
 * Interview.


 * And http://www.metalunderground.com/?
 * Interview.


 * Likewise http://www.metal-rules.com/? (can you tell I'm not a metal fan?)
 * Interviews, concert reviews and a report about a signing event.


 * And http://www.metal-realm.net/?
 * Interview.


 * And http://www.chaindlk.com/?
 * Interview.


 * And http://www.musicemissions.com/index.php?sid=b7ad4e1afd68dfb364aed167ef431eb1? It seems they allow user reviews and editorial reviews, and to become an editorial reviewer you have to do 25 reviews and then they look at your writing to see if you are above average? The review you're using is a user review, I believe, so why is it significant?
 * http://www.inmusicwetrust.com/articles/71h16.html the interview is done by Mike SOS, I have to admit that having an interviewer not give his full name is a bit of a worry for me.
 * Interview.


 * http://www.geocities.com/loudster/ is hosted on Geocities, so why is it reliable?
 * Interview.


 * What makes this site http://www.tartareandesire.com/aboutus.html reliable?
 * Interview and a concert review.


 * And http://www.blistering.com/fastpage/fpengine.php/templateid/1?
 * Interview and a concert review.


 * And http://www.metaleater.com/mag.php?
 * Interview.


 * Current ref 54 is lacking a title
 * I don't know the title, it was probably Interview with Devin Townsend or something like that, but I personally don't have the magazine or the article, I only know it was in that particular issue.


 * What makes http://www.revelationz.net/index.asp?Type=stafflist a reliable site? They say they work on the website in their spare time.
 * Interview. Yeah, but can't they interview bands in their spare time? Strapping Young Lad is not that high profile band as eg. Metallica, so fanzines can easily get in contact with Devin Townsend or other band members. Heck, Century Media is only an independent label.


 * http://members.aol.com/enslain/index2.html is hosted on AOL, what makes it reliable?
 * Interview.


 * And http://sickdrummer.com/index.php?option=com_contact&Itemid=3?
 * Interview.


 * http://grindkhaos.tripod.com/interviews3.html is on tripod, what makes it reliable?
 * Interview.


 * And this one http://www.alternative-zine.com/index.php?lang=en? (Although the idea of Isreali heavy metal sites in Hebrew just makes me want to approve of it on general principles...the things you learn on Wikipedia...)
 * Interview.


 * And http://www.thegauntlet.com/?
 * I use this ref to back up the fact that Towsend is "one of the most recognizable musicians in the metal community". The Gauntlet is a metal site, maybe only a fanzine (I didn't check), but it is a prominent site in the metal community.


 * And http://dropd.com/index/?
 * Live review. There are no SYL concert reviews on mainstream sites. I don't think a Rolling Stone editor ever went to a Strapping Young Lad gig. :D


 * And http://www.teufelstomb.com/?
 * Maybe this can be deleted, although then I'll have no other ref to back up the fact that "Far Beyond Metal" became a live staple as well as a fan favorite. But they played this song at a high number of concerts (maybe almost every concert) from 1997 to 2006. And a fan sings it on their concert DVD.
 * I'm sure some of these are reliable, I'm just not very familiar with metal websites yet. The links all checked out fine with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well these sites are mostly fanzines (some of them are only webzines, some of them are published in printed form as well) and pretty much all the stuff from these sites are interviews. For reviews, I've only used reliable sites (I've deleted the Music Emissions ref, where it was used as a review). You have to understand that this is heavy metal (extreme metal!), not rocket science, or not even pop music, so there are no books on the subject, not even Rolling Stone or any other mainstream magazine articles and/or reviews. I've practically written this biography from interviews with band members (mostly with the frontman, Devin Townsend), and tried to find as many notable album reviews as possible. Gocsa (talk) 15:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So yeah, there are sites hosted on geocities and sites like that, but as they're interviews, the important stuff (used as reference) is what the interviewed band members say.. Gocsa (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: I think you should individually address each of the websites listed by Ealdgyth, so that it becomes clear what makes your use of those sources permissible on Wikipedia. (like on the PR you told me some were only used for Concert reports etc.) indopug (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Contributed at the peer review. Although the sources might be suspect, its pretty clear that the band is very underground; neither Rolling Stone reviews them nor do academicians assess SYL's influence on modern youth culture (you know, like they do with the Beatles and Nirvana). Besides, most of what is reffed to "suspect" sites are only either interviews or the rather mundane concert/tour/release information, nothing controversial. Prose is okay, did a bit of copy-editing myself. Maybe a word-nerd or two will pick up any remaining details. indopug (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - Well done, the prose looks much better. \m/ Skeletor2112 (talk) 04:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments. Yeah, prose seems generally good...FAC has helped, no doubt! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:53, 19 April 2008 (UTC) The Fat Man comments: I'm delighted to see an article on one of my favorite bands up for FA status! The article looks great, and I'll post some comments shortly.
 * "After a four year hiatus between 1999 and 2002," - some would say that's three years. Better to just remove the "four year"
 * "The offer was eventually withdrawn because, as the owner of Roadrunner thought " - remove the "because" and comma
 * "Although its unusual musical ideas" - wlink the genres here
 * "work as record producer" - needs an "a"
 * "on the Billboard Top Heatseekers chart" - italics for Billboard
 * Support. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 07:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * First thing that jumps out at me: I think using the term wall of sound in the lead is highly problematic.  That term very specifically alludes to techniques employed by Phil Spector in the 1960s.  Strapping Young Lad's sound--though densely layered--is not related to that of Spector's recordings.  If a critic described their sound using that term, please say so.
 * I don't think the use of the term is that exclusive, I've read tons of reviews and interviews in metal magazines referring to his production as "wall of sound". And hey, other bands have used a wall of sound since Spector, maybe the wiki article for wall of sound should have a section about other uses of the term or other bands using a similar production method - it has an 'Other songs using technique' section, so maybe this should be worked on. Or you can suggest a way to rephrase it so that it says that Townsend's production is similar to Phil Spector's. Gocsa (talk) 17:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and it is mentioned (and referenced) in the article that he was referred to as the "Phil Spector of metal" by a critic. Gocsa (talk) 17:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I'll check out that source, but as is stands the way you've used the term (especially with the wikilink) causes confusion--to a reader, it comes across as if the author of the article doesn't know what "wall of sound" means.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That source looks good. I'll do some thinking on whether there's another way we can word this. --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are we using British spelling (e.g., "characterised") in article about a Canadian band?
 * Cool I see you fixed it. The only other British spelling I found was "Basterdised" but that should remain because it's from a direct quote.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm concerned about the use of the past tense throughout the article when the account of their "dissolution" doesn't sound all that definitive to me: "Although Hoglan initially denied the definitive break-up of the band, saying they would go on tour in March 2007,[53] he later stated Strapping Young Lad is on "extended hiatus", and might never reunite again.[54]"
 * "Might never reunite again" is not an official breakup.  By contrast, the lead section of the System of a Down article (why are so many of the Fat Man's favorite bands in a nebulous state of permanent hiatus?) uses the present tense.  For precedent's sake, do we have examples of featured articles about bands with ambiguous breakup status, or TV shows that have sort-of-but-not-really gone off the air?  If so, are those articles written in the present or past tense?
 * Yeah, but as a fan of the band you should know that SYL is over for good. Hoglan made these comments at the end of 2006. But Townsend has the final word on the band's future as he is the founder/frontman, Hoglan was just babbling, it's nothing so important, it was a glimpse of hope at the time, but 1,5 year has passed since then and SYL shows no activity, Townsend is busy with his solo thing and producer work. Also, he officially broke up the band at the press conference in May 2007. Yes, they "might" reunite again, as they did after so many years with the SYL album in 2003, but this is very unlikely. If any news comes up about a new album, we'll change the article to present tense, but as I said this is very unlikely. They're not even touring as they did between 1999 and 2002, each member has his other things goin' on so... Gocsa (talk) 18:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, forget what I know and what you know for a moment (I should point out that, when I say they are "one of my favorite bands," that only means I play their songs on my iPod while I'm at the gym and that I try to catch their shows when whey they come to NYC; it doesn't mean I know anything about their goings-on). We're talking about the article... the article should unequivocally state that the band has been dissolved, and there should be a source that speaks to this.  I don't think the dissolution section currently states this effectively.  Without much clearer language, the use of the past tense comes across as presumptuous.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, then Townsend's announcement is what? He has confirmed it, period. Just read the reference. Gocsa (talk) 19:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Compare the language in the lead section (emphasis added):
 * "Townsend disbanded Strapping Young Lad in May 2007, announcing his decision to retreat from public view while continuing to record solo albums."
 * With the more equivocal language in the body of the article:
 * "In May 2007, during a press conference held to promote his new solo album, Ziltoid the Omniscient, Townsend announced his plans to retreat from public view, including giving interviews and touring, to concentrate on his family, and producing solo albums, as well as other people's music.[55]"
 * "Plans" to "retreat from public view" are not the same as dissolution of a rock band. Once again, I'm not talking about the content of the reference itself; I'm only saying that to a reader of the Wikipedia article, this could be made more clear.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't entirely understand your problem. You can add a sentence after this, if you wish, saying: This meant the dissolution of Strapping Young Lad, as well as The Devin Townsend Band, or something.. He announced those plans (to solely concentrate on his solo work) and fulfilled them. He fulfilled them, didn't he? If you agree and have no problem with the reference, but want to expand this part in the article, feel free to do it. Saying that it is an indefinite hiatus, or that a new album may be recorded sometime in the future is merely speculation, cause Townsend surely never said that he is taking an "indefinite hiatus", or anything about putting the band to rest only "for a while". As I said before, unless he makes some kind of comment about the possibility of a reunion, the best thing we can do is to use the past tense and say it's a breakup. Gocsa (talk) 23:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also this interview http://www.metalhammer.co.uk/news/article/?id=46602 in which he says SYL is over, we can also somehow incorporate this into the wiki article. Gocsa (talk) 23:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I added some more info after this part to make it more clear, check it out, and help me, thanks:) Gocsa (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I like it! I think that's much better.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * All in all, this is very impressive work, for which you are to be commended. I don't know if it's good enough to be promoted--I'll leave that to the experts.  If anything, the two greatest obstacles are potentially unreliable sources and copyediting (with which I can assist, to some degree). I'll also let you know if I come up with a better way to word the "wall of sound" claim, and I hope you can more clearly indicate and cite that the band is now defunct. Very good stuff! --The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 16:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * This probably isn't the best place to bring this up, but I'm not 100% happy with the song selection in the audio clips. I would love to have a clip of "Oh My Fucking God," which in my mind is the quintessential showcase of the band's ferocious speed, chaotic sound and wacky sense of humor--perhaps it belongs in the "Musical Style" section.  I see from your user talk page that you once uploaded a clip but some admin deleted it.  I also love "Skeksis" from Alien which uses melodic themes from the The Dark Crystal score and features absurdly complex arrangements and drumming.  Of course this isn't a real critique of the article, just an assertion of my personal tastes.  Anyway, good luck!--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but "Love?" is much more popular, you don't have to be a SYL fan to know it, there are many people who only know this one song from the band, because it had a music video and it was in heavy rotation on MTV2. But "Oh My Fucking God", I have to think about that one:) You think it should replace "Far Beyond Metal"? It's also a pretty important song, as it was played at like every concert from 1997, and was recorded with a guest vocalist, etc.... Gocsa (talk) 19:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The questions on reliable sources (above) need to be resolved, per WP:V. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually Sandy, that's a matter of opinion. Whenever a heavy metal articles hits FAC, these questions always come up. It's about time FAC reviewers realise that sources are limited when it comes to metal articles - this isn't the Beatles, or the Rolling Stones. LuciferMorgan (talk) 22:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't say the sources would automatically be rejected, but that the questions need to be resolved (as in, answered). What makes them reliable?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Ealdgyth never replied, although I left her a message a week ago or so, and now she's on vacation. As for the reliability, I answered every question, they're all interviews and/or concert reviews, I don't know what else to say, as LuciferMorgan said they're all the sources available anywhere. Gocsa (talk) 10:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't answer because I'm totally unsure. I understand that some subjects just don't HAVE convential sources, but I'm not going to make a hard and fast ruling on them because i'm not sure. I left them unresolved with the answers so that folks can judge for themselves in the supports/opposes. As I recall, the interviews didn't look horrible, and I think most of them at least used the full interviewers name, etc. In the end, it boils down to, I don't know. Nothing screams "Bad source" but they aren't exactly fitting into the obviously RS category either. Sorry to be indecisive, but it's really a subject area I'm not familiar with and the fact that most of them are interviews makes them swing enough toward the middle between RS and Non-RS that I can't make a decision. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Notes: I easily spotted MoS issues. Please consider asking User:Epbr123 to do a check, as he quickly spots and corrects MoS problems. A bigger concern is that I also easily spotted basic grammatical errors; a fresh review of the prose is in order.  For example, the punctuation here is such that I can't decipher what the sentence is trying to say:
 * Townsend was the main songwriter of the band; the first two albums were completely his work, while following Strapping Young Lad, all four members "tossed in riffs, lyrical ideas, and song titles", but he remained the largest contributor.
 * and here
 * For the first time, the album was a product of collaborative writing; the band wrote "about half" of the material on the 2001 Foot In Mouth Tour, and the rest at home, starting January 2002.

By the time an article has accumulated four Supports, I have to assume someone has checked the prose and these kinds of issues have been worked out; I shouldn't be finding them myself. Perhaps The Fat Man (a capable writer) can be enticed to copyedit the entire article. The WP:LEAD is meager; it should be a compelling stand-alone summary of the entire article, drawing the reader in. Raul uses the lead to write the TFA blurbs; it would be hard to come up with a full blurb from this lead, and it doesn't seem to cover the entire article. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 04:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What else do you think should be included in the lead? Gocsa (talk) 14:15, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I requested a copyedit for the article, but I don't know what to do with the lead, I found it good enough.. Gocsa (talk) 18:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am more celebrated for my laziness than for my writing, so I doubt I can be "enticed to copyedit the entire article." However, I should probably have time to do some copyediting on Sunday.  Sandy, how much time do the FAC gods typically allow before a decision is rendered?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Since my favorite bot is on a break, Sunday is good. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Different users see different things... I am not so good at spotting MoS issues, but I can point out choppy sentences. I am assuming that the four who supported didn't see any more problems. I can only list what I see, and when that is taken care of, I support... how else is it supposed to go? Skeletor2112 (talk) 05:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Tonight, I've done quite a bit of copyediting on the main body of the article, but haven't touched the lead, which still needs work. Let me know if you think my copyedits were worthwhile.
 * Also I've added tags for the following statements:
 * I could find no reference that, after being rejected by Roadrunner and Relatively Records, Towsend was signed to a 5-album deal with Century Records. You used this as a source, but that article doesn't say anything about it.
 * You also wrote how Townsend's discontinuing his medication during the recording of Alien influenced his lyrics, but the source you cited says no such thing. More importantly, do we have a good source that Townsend suffers from bipolar disorder?  This condition is alluded to several times.
 * What?? It's the first question on the page "You went off your medication to record Alien – how did that affect you and the recording process?" then he explains how in the answer. Ok, we can change the sentence in the article, statint it affected the recording process, or the record itself, but it was definitely an influence on this particular record. Gocsa (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That source does say he's manic depressive. It's allegedly an interview on a website whose main page we can't access and that is not reliable.  How do we know that interview ever happened?  You haven't established the reliability of the sources.  Bipolar disorder is still mentioned elsewhere in the article, sourced to a dead link (Gramlich, Chris (February 2003). The Reluctant Return of Strapping Young Lad. Exclaim!. Retrieved on January 31, 2008.)  We need a high-quality reliable source to back up the bipolar statement.  Please read WP:BLP.  I appreciate the work The Fat Man did to bring this article closer to standard after four supports; if you can correct the sourcing, perhaps you can ask one of the four supporters to help finish up the lead. Nowhere does WP:V say we take the word of a no-name website that an interview is presented correctly or even happened.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 12:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Fat Man; don't try to pretend laziness with me again, 'cuz it won't work :-)) The bipolar concern is a serious WP:BLP issue, and that must be sourced to a very high quality source (not some no-name website).  The one I clicked on returned a dead link.  We need a high-quality reliable published source for that.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * There's something wrong with this sentence. I don't know if it's missing commas, hyphens, or what, but I can't decipher its meaning:
 * 1994-2006 Chaos Years, a career spanning best of album was released on March 31, 2008, with a bonus DVD of live performances, including their set at Download Festival in 2006.

Sandy Georgia (Talk) 13:09, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure I could find lots more little nit-picky stuff, but those are the things that pop out at me the most. There are some areas where the writing cold be slightly better, but I guess it would suffice. Also, there are several unsourced statements, and I can't see an FAC being promoted with entire un-referenced paragraphs. Good work overall, though. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  13:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * In the first sentence of the lead, I would Wikilink Canadian.
 * All paragraphs need to end in a reference, expecially the one with cn.
 * Need Non-breaking spaces throughout.
 * On November 2, 2004, Strapping Young Lad released a [DVD]] entitled For Those Aboot to Rock: Live at the Commodore, which documented the band's January 16, 2004 performance at the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver. Broken Wikilink.

Also, I see two dead links. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  13:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose, 1a and 1c. There are some prose issues that I've called out below, but my main concern is the plethora of unreliable sources.  It appears that this has mostly been "web researched" which is prevalent in pop culture articles but unfortunately produces few reliable sources.  There are many reliable print sources about popular music, including metal, that have reputations for fact-checking and a serious editorial process.  You need to use them for this to meet criterion 1c.
 * "The band started as a one-man studio project with Townsend playing most of the instruments on the 1995 debut album..." It's not really a one-man project if he played "most" of the instruments, is it?
 * Actually, one-man studio project implies that there was only one official member in the band, Devin Townsend. THe few instruments he didn't play were by session musicians who are never creditted as being a part of the band. indopug (talk) 20:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Use of passive voice unnecessarily obscures the subject of sentences: "... permanent lineup was recruited ..."
 * "The band gained critical success from their 1997 album City, as well as a growing underground fan base." Badly worded; sounds as if you are partially attributing their critical success to their fan base.
 * Stylistic but ungrammatical comma usage throughout.
 * Your very first citation goes to a source I can't even find.. what is Loudmouth? I found a self-published feminist zine called LOUDMouth; surely it's not that?
 * History section... much more passive voice, even when the subject is identified. It's just poor prose.
 * The first para of the History section has a "citation needed" tag? No, not even for GA let alone FA.
 * I cannot reconcile these interviews published to personal web space and used as teriary sources here. You need to look up the real source for the interview if you're going to use it to source facts.
 * You have many subjective statements, such as that City was well-received by critics, sourced to Blabbermouth.net which is of unknown reliability. Are they reprinting reviews from other places, like the Bergman review? Is Bergman a Blabbermouth user?  What is the editorial and fact-checking process?
 * Just wanted to say that Blabbermouth is defenetely a reliable source - they are probably one of the top Metal review/news sites out there. I bet every one of the 21 metal FA's uses Blabbermouth as a source.  Bergman is a reviewer there, users don't write reviews. Skeletor2112 (talk) 05:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No offense, but we can't afford to take your word for it. We need some evidence, such as a reliable secondary source (like a printed metal magazine) referring to Blabbermouth as reliable.  Pervasiveness does not equal reliability. -- Laser brain   (talk)  05:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand you can't take my word for it, thats not what I meant... It's just well known int he metal community as the source. I don't subscribe anymore, but Metal Maniacs magazine reprints news from Blabbermouth, they have(or had last I saw) a section devoted to Blabbermouth news.  I can maybe find an old issue and scan it? Skeletor2112 (talk) 05:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Other subjective statements, such as "The album soon gained a cult following, and a loyal fan base for the band." are sourced to the band's official biography on the record company's web site. This amounts to peacockery and statements like this always need to be sourced to reliable, secondary sources.  Any official web page should only be used for basic facts.
 * WP:BLP violation. Your statement about his being bipolar is sourced to a link that does appear to be reliable per policy.  It's an IP address and it doesn't even work.
 * Myriad issues need to be addressed before we can really move to examining the prose in-depth. -- Laser brain  (talk)  15:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Alright then, I'll take care of the reference issues, and try to expand the lead, while The Fat Man (and others maybe) will probably help me some more with the copyediting (I also requested one from the League of Copyeditors). I suggest we should close this one now, and within a week or two I'll restart the nomination. Gocsa (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose I agree with Laser Brain about the unreliable sources, and about other things as well. I can't believe I didn't notice these things before. Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  23:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll archive with the next batch, Gocsa, and I'm sure you'll be successful next time through, after addressing these issues outside of the time limits of FAC. Hope to see you back soon !!  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't look at every paragraph during my scattershot round of copyediting, but this time I shall focus on Laser's excellent points, at least to the extent that they can be addressed by copyediting alone (I can't really help on the sourcing issue). I expect to take care of this within a few days (though additional help is more than welcome; the article could always benefit from the hand of a truly competent writer).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 22:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.