Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stroma, Scotland/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 9 October 2014.

Stroma, Scotland

 * Nominator(s): Prioryman (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm nominating this article for consideration as a featured article. It covers the subject of Stroma, an island off the north coast of Scotland that was abandoned 50 years ago after a population collapse. Stroma is now completely uninhabited; visitors to Orkney will be familiar with the sight from the ferries of the island's ruined houses, which are also visible from the mainland. As well as telling the often colourful story of the island and its former inhabitants, it illustrates the struggle that many small island communities have faced in staying viable. It received a very good response from readers when it ran on DYK some months ago and has recently passed a Good Article review. Prioryman (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Flag_of_Scotland.svg: source link is dead
 * File:Lymphad3.svg: licensing for both source images appears incorrect - the uploaders do not hold copyright to this design. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled about this one. They're self-created images; what licence should be used instead? Prioryman (talk) 14:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The images are self-created, but they are based on a pre-existing design, which may or may not be PD. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The pre-existing designs are both most certainly PD (I'm sure you know nobody has copyrighted the saltire and the lymphad is centuries old). But does that mean that any self-created renderings of those designs have to be PD as well? It's not as if either of these images are non-free content or derivatives thereof. Prioryman (talk) 12:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it simply means you need to identify the designs as PD and give the appropriate source to support this. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I see the flag image already has a tag saying it's PD. The lymphad is from a 400-year-old coat of arms, so I've added a pd-ineligible tag to both the lymphad image and its source coat of arms. Both images are centuries old, pre-dating the existence of copyright law, so there clearly shouldn't be any question of them being PD. Prioryman (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 *  Comments Support on comprehnsiveness and prose. looking good - queries below: Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 *  Due to its proximity to the Scottish mainland, Stroma has long been united with Caithness - certainly not united geographically! alternately, "has close ties with..." or something?
 * No, that doesn't really work - it should be politically united (as the intro says). Orkney has always been a separate domain. Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 *  100 yards (91 m) inland - i think I'd make that "100 yards (90 m) inland" as it is not exactly 100 yards meant....
 * OK, i"ve made that change. Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 * can we link or explain "butt" and "ben"?
 * Good idea, I've added a footnote. It's the first time I've used that particular template; could you please check to confirm I've done it right? Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * yeah looks fine - I've used a different template but this is ok. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * descriptors for Bella Bathurst?
 * OK, added. Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


 *  .. which discontinued any interest in serving the island - I think they'd "discontinue serving the island" or "ceased any interest in serving the island"
 * How about "abandoned"? Thematically it goes quite nicely with the abandonment of Stroma itself. Prioryman (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comments from CorinneSD

1) In the first sentence in the lead, I suggest changing "of the Scottish mainland" to "of the mainland of Scotland". I think using the name of the country rather than the adjective helps readers mentally locate the island (even though "Scotland" is in the article title).

2) At the beginning of the second paragraph in the lead, I suggest changing "The low-lying island" to "This low-lying island". It is referring to an island just named and discussed. 3) I suggest changing the wording of the first sentence of the second paragraph of the lead from:


 * "This low-lying island was inhabited from prehistoric times to 1962, when the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it for new homes on the mainland"


 * to:


 * "This low-lying island was inhabited from prehistoric times until the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it for new homes on the mainland in 1962".


 * The reason for my suggested rewording is that the action of abandoning the island conceptually balances the phrase "was inhabited from prehistoric times" -- that is, it creates a mental image of the span of human activity -- and is more interesting than a date. To make the sentence even more powerful, you might consider taking out "for new homes on the mainland". You can explain that later. Then it would read:


 * "This low-lying island was inhabited from prehistoric times until the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it in 1962".


 * This is the kind of sentence that will make readers wonder why they abandoned it and continue reading. It gives sufficient information but not all the information.

3) Later in that paragraph is the following sentence:


 * "Stroma has been united politically with the mainland region of Caithness since at least the 15th century".


 * I would change "united politically" to "politically united".


 * I'm not sure that the phrase "the mainland region of" is necessary. You already mentioned Caithness in the first paragraph and it is implied in that sentence, "between the Orkney Islands and Caithness", that it is on the mainland of Scotland. There is also a link at Caithness. The sentence would be leaner without that phrase. Lean sentences often have more power.

4) In the next sentence, "Although it lies only a few miles off the Scottish coast,...", the pronoun "it" is slightly ambiguous. The reader has to stop for a second and realize that something that lies off a coast must be the island Stroma rather than the region Caithness. You might consider using "Stroma" instead of "it".

5) In this sentence:


 * "They were largely self-sufficient, by necessity, trading agricultural produce and fish with the mainlanders",


 * "They" also has potential for ambiguity (there are two plural nouns in the previous sentence). I suggest combining the two sentences as follows:


 * "Although Stroma lies only a few miles off the Scottish coast, the savage weather and ferociously strong tides of the Pentland Firth meant that the island's inhabitants were very isolated, causing them to be largely self-sufficient, trading agricultural produce and fish with the mainlanders."


 * (I would leave out "by necessity".)


 * I see you placed the phrase "low-lying island" after "Although" in this sentence, and used "Stroma's inhabitants" instead of "the island's inhabitants" in the main clause. While grammatically this is all right, stylistically there are problems:


 * (a) You are using the present participle and the present tense of the same verb in close proximity: "Although the low-lying island lies...".


 * (b) Introducing "Stroma" in the phrase "Stroma's inhabitants" at the beginning of the main clause creates a slight ambiguity: the reader may wonder whether these inhabitants are inhabitants of a different island from "the low-lying island".


 * I strongly urge you to reverse these, as I had suggested above, so that it reads:


 * ""Although Stroma lies only a few miles off the Scottish coast, the savage weather and ferociously strong tides of the Pentland Firth meant that the island's inhabitants were very isolated, causing them to be largely self-sufficient, trading agricultural produce and fish with the mainlanders."


 * This way, I think it clear that "the island" in the phrase "the island's inhabitants" refers to Stroma.


 * I know you were trying to find the best place for "low-lying". I'm not sure it is needed in the lead. You've got a good description in the first paragraph of Stroma, Scotland.


 * If you really want it in the lead, perhaps add it right at the beginning:


 * Stroma is a low-lying island off the northern coast of the mainland of Scotland."

6) In this sentence:


 * "Most of the islanders were fishermen and crofters, with some also working as maritime pilots to guide vessels through the treacherous waters of the Pentland Firth",


 * I don't like the sound of "with some also working..." following a sentence where the verb is BE. I suggest changing the preposition phrase to a verb phrase:


 * "Most of the islanders were fishermen and crofters; some also worked as maritime pilots to guide vessels through the treacherous waters of the Pentland Firth".


 * The prepositional phrase "with..." minimizes the work of maritime pilots. Using an active verb phrase elevates it to an important occupation. You also have a "with" phrase shortly after this.

7) In the first paragraph of the section Stroma, Scotland, I see "north-west" and "south-east". I thought "northwest" and "southeast" were each one word.

8) In that same sentence,


 * "Stroma is located in the Pentland Firth about 2 miles (3.2 km) north-west of John o' Groats on the mainland, dividing the firth into two channels (the Inner Sound to the south, and the Outer Sound to the north),"


 * I would change:


 * "..., dividing the firth into two channels..." to:


 * "and divides the firth into two channels".


 * This makes it clear that it is Stroma, and not either the Pentland Firth or John o' Groats, that divides the firth into two channels.


 * Also, I would delete the parentheses around "the Inner Sound to the south, and the Outer Sound to the north" and use a comma: "...and divides the firth into two channels, the Inner Sound to the south and the Outer Sound to the north" (no comma in the middle).

9) In the first sentence of the second paragraph in Stroma, Scotland,


 * "The island is ringed by cliffs, varying in height from around 33 m (108 ft) on the west coast to low cliffs with a narrow rocky foreshore elsewhere",


 * I would change:


 * "The island is ringed by cliffs, varying in height..." to:


 * "The island is ringed by cliffs that vary in height..."


 * The verb is more direct and powerful than the participle.

10) The first sentence of the fourth paragraph of this section reads:


 * " The heavily indented coastline has a circumference of about 7 miles (11 km), indented by numerous geos or inlets produced by the cliffs being eroded along fault lines by the sea".


 * I suggest changing "produced by the cliffs being eroded along fault lines by the sea" to:


 * "produced when the cliffs by the sea are eroded along fault lines".


 * I see that you have written:


 * "The heavily indented coastline has a circumference of about 7 miles (11 km), indented by numerous geos or inlets created when the waves eroded the sea cliffs along fault lines."


 * When you read, "created...", you obviously interpreted it as "[which were] created...", judging by your choice of past tense "eroded", but it could be interpreted as "[which are] created...", in which case present tense "erode" would follow. Of course, it is your choice. In the one, you are describing what led to the formation of present geos and inlets. In the other, you are describing the on-going and continuous process of erosion. Just something to think about.

11) In the following sentence:


 * "It is located at the junction of the two fault lines and is connected by the sea by a subterranean passage 165 yd (151 m) long, created by erosion along the east-north-east fault",


 * I think it should be "and is connected to the sea", not "by the sea".

12) In the following sentence:


 * "It is said to have been used by islanders for smuggling and to conceal illegal distilling from HM Customs and Excise by hiding the stills and alcohol in a cave within the Gloup, called "the Malt Barn", which was only accessible at low tide",


 * I think you need to clarify "it". It's the subterranean passage, not the cave. You can say, "This passage".


 * I would remove the comma after "within the Gloup".

13) In the following sentence:


 * "The flora and fauna of Stroma is similar to that of the mainland",


 * I think the verb should be "are" since you have a plural subject, and "that" should be changed to "those":


 * "The flora and fauna of Stroma are similar to those of the mainland."

14) Regarding this sentence:


 * "The island is entirely treeless, its vegetation consisting primarily of grasses, heather and small flowers",


 * you might consider the following rewording:


 * "The island is treeless; its vegetation consists primarily of grasses, heather and small flowers".


 * If something is treeless, it has no trees, so "entirely" is unnecessary. Saying that an island or area is treeless -- just that, treeless -- creates a stunning image. I also think using the participle "consisting", minimizes the information that follows it. The verb is more descriptive.

15) In the section Stroma, Scotland is the following sentence:


 * "They originally belonged to two different estates; the Freswick estate owned Nethertown, while the Mey estate owned Uppertown".


 * I suggest rewording as follows:


 * The settlements originally belonged to two different estates: the Freswick estate owned Nethertown and the Mey estate owned Uppertown".


 * I just don't think subordination is necessary here.

16) In the second paragraph in the subsection under History Stroma, Scotland, there is a sentence that reads:


 * "They are located near midden, out of which animal bones and shells are eroding."


 * I wonder if you could add an adverb before "located" that would indicate the frequency:


 * always
 * often
 * usually
 * sometimes

17) The very next sentence is:


 * "Little appears to be known about their purpose and origins."

This sentence, with the possessive adjective "their", is getting pretty far away from the antecedent. You've also got several plural nouns between "their" and the antecedent. The next sentence also refers to "them" and "they". I suggest reminding the reader of the subject:


 * "Little appears to be known about the purpose and origins of these structures".

That's all I can do right now. CorinneSD (talk) 20:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

18) In the middle of the third paragraph in the section Stroma, Scotland is the following sentence:


 * "The latter acquired Nethertown in 1721 and eventually also took possession of Uppertown as well by obtaining the wadset from the Kennedies, reportedly through skullduggery."


 * (a) You don't need both "also" and "as well". I would remove one. I think "as well" sounds better than "also" here.


 * (b) I've never seen a name that ends in "y", like "Kennedy", made into plural by changing the "y" to "i" and adding "es", as in study-studies. I think it should be "Kennedys", or "the Kennedy family".

19) In the fourth paragraph in the section Stroma, Scotland is the following sentence:


 * " As many as 560 vessels have had to be refloated in the Pentland Firth between 1830 and 1990 after getting into difficulties."

Because of the finite period 1830 to 1990, present perfect tense is incorrect for the verb: "have had". I see two ways to fix this:


 * 1) Change "have had" to past tense: "had". The only problem with this is that it leaves out the idea that vessels may have continued to have to be refloated since 1990.


 * 2) Reword the sentence as follows, keeping the present perfect tense:


 * "Many vessels -- as many as 560 between 1830 and 1990 -- have had to be refloated in the Pentland Firth after getting into difficulties."


 * (Use en-dashes; I don't know how to put en-dashes here.) That way, you keep the present perfect tense, indicating that it is a continuing circumstance, but you also are able to give a figure for a specific period. CorinneSD (talk) 16:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Excellent suggestions, many thanks. I've implemented them all, with some minor amendments of my own in a couple of places. Here's a diff showing all the changes. Prioryman (talk) 22:19, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Please see my additional comments at items #5 and 10, above. One additional comment:

20) The first sentence in the second paragraph in the lead reads:


 * "The island was inhabited from prehistoric times until the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it for new homes on the mainland in 1962."


 * Grammatically, this is all right, but stylistically there is a problem: the use of the noun and verb form of the same word in close proximity:


 * "The island was inhabited....until the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it..."


 * It would be good to figure out a way to avoid this. Perhaps:


 * "There was continuous human habitation on the island from prehistoric times until the last of its permanent inhabitants abandoned it for new homes on the mainland in 1962."




 * "The island was inhabited from prehistoric times until the last of its residents abandoned it for new homes on the mainland in 1962."


 * The only problem with the first one is that you still have "habitation" and "inhabitants". I prefer the second one. (I wouldn't use "permanent residents" since that has other connotations, at least in the U.S., another phrase for "resident alien", or a resident who is not a citizen. I don't think "permanent" is necessary anyway.) CorinneSD (talk) 23:09, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

21) In the second-to-last paragraph in the section Stroma, Scotland is the following sentence:


 * "The passage is said to have been used by islanders for smuggling; they are said to have concealed illegal distilling from HM Customs and Excise by hiding the stills and alcohol in a cave within the Gloup, called "the Malt Barn", which was only accessible at low tide."


 * I think it could be made clearer and more concise by avoiding "they" after the semi-colon and rewording as follows:


 * "The passage is said to have been used by islanders for smuggling: the islanders are said to have concealed illegal distilling from HM Customs and Excise...", yielding:


 * "The passage is said to have been used for smuggling: the islanders are said to have concealed illegal distilling from HM Customs and Excise..."

CorinneSD (talk) 23:26, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * All done - thanks for the further comments. Prioryman (talk) 13:56, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Comments from Ben MacDui
 * I think this is a fine article. I am very pressed for time right now and not 100% up-to-speed on FAC protocols. I am assuming that as a member of WikiProject Scottish Islands its not OK for me to offer a formal opinion. If that's not the case, pls alert me.
 * Don't worry, it's absolutely fine to offer a formal opinion. Being a member of the WikiProject doesn't disqualify you. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Ditto under 19th century.
 * It's a fair point - fixed. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'The heavily indented coastline has a circumference of about 7 miles (11 km),[9] indented by numerous geos' uses indented twice.
 * Changed the second "indented" to "punctuated". Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'A partially collapsed sea cave called the Gloup' if it is called 'the Gloup' should the T not be capitalised? Haswell-Smith does so.
 * Well spotted, fixed. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The flora and fauna section seems a little sparse to me. I imagine there is little or nothing that is specific to the island but a few species of local flora and maybe an estimate of bird/seal numbers woudl not go amiss (if they are available).
 * I don't have that info, I'm afraid - I've looked for it. Perhaps the island is too obscure to have been documented in that level of detail? Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * See JNCC and HC for some detail that could be added about the locality, including Stroma. See also this pdf and SNH. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I've managed to wring a bit more info out of those sources. Prioryman (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'The settlements originally belonged to two different estates: the Freswick estate owned Nethertown and the Mey estate owned Uppertown' - this reads slightly clumsily to me and I suspect that finding a way to amalgamate it with the previous sentence might help to avoid using 'estate' three times in one sentence.
 * Good point, I've reworded it. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Panoramic view of the north of Stroma, with Orkney in the distance. The Mains of Stroma, the houses of Nethertown and the top of the lighthouse can be seen.' In my view the 'The' before 'Mains' is redundant, in Scottish English at least.
 * Thanks, changed. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'The population reached a peak of 375 people' - 'people' is redundant.
 * It could have meant sheep. ;-) But that's a good point, I've changed it. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * ' (also known as "the Robber's Castle") ' - surley either the "Robber's Castle", or "The Robber's Castle"?
 * It's verbatim from the source, so I didn't feel I should change it... Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd like to know where the 'the fatal wounding of John Forbes of Watertown' took place.
 * See here. I've not found a reliable source for it though. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Might be worthy of a Note stating that this took place in the vicinity of Ellon Castle in Aberdeenshire. If you need another ref, its Coventry, Martin (2008) Castles of the Clans. Musselburgh. Goblinshead. ISBN 9781899874361, p 304. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have a page number for that reference? Prioryman (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's there, after the ISBN.
 * D'oh! How embarrassing that I missed that. I've added it now - thanks for looking it up. Prioryman (talk) 19:02, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you can be forgiven - I know how wearying this process can be. Ben   Mac  Dui  19:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Added. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'in January–February 1937' repeats the year - could be 'in January–February of that year'.
 * Amended. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'While smuggling may have been suppressed, ' repeats 'suppressed' from the prev. sentence.
 * Changed to "tackled". Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


 * May I suggest that you use "dealt with" (or "resolved") instead of "tackled"? "Tackled" leaves open the possibility that the problem was not resolved. "Dealt with" suggests that the problem was resolved. CorinneSD (talk) 22:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I chose "tackled" because the smuggling issue clearly wasn't resolved. If you read on you'll see an account of smuggling wrecked goods from the 20th century - it was pretty clearly an endemic practice. Prioryman (talk) 18:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * 'She hed all her wits boot her.' It's an uncommon dilaect but I just wanted to check it should not be 'aboot' which would be a more common usage.
 * It's verbatim. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Wick and Thurso can be linked.
 * Done. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Can we link 'Scottish Cooperative Wholesale Society shop'?
 * To what? I don't think we have an article on it, do we? Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I see now that Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society is only a redirect, although the main article does mention it.  Ben   Mac  Dui  17:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * 'I see Stroma was sold last week, and it's not sold this week' This is odd - can you check it's a verbatim quote?
 * Yes, it's verbatim. He's saying that he heard that Stroma had been sold last week but found this week that it hadn't been. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You might add an explanatory Note as this reads oddly without the context. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Prioryman (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure about Caithness CC as a red link - hard to see anyone not just adding material to Caithness.
 * Fair point, delinked. Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If you think it appropriate, Geology of Orkney could be a 'See also'. You might also consider adding Mingulay and St Kilda as islands with similar histories, although I accept there are numerous other examples.
 * I've linked the islands. Thanks for your suggestions! Prioryman (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Good work. Ben  Mac  Dui  19:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Apologies to Prioryman for my slow response time. Hoping to provide a full reply tomorrow. Ben   Mac  Dui  16:32, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * A few comments added above. I'd be happy to support this subejct to a little more detail on the wildlife front being added. Ben   Mac  Dui  17:14, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ben Macdui: Thanks, I've tackled the comments you added. Prioryman (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Support Ben   Mac  Dui  18:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Rather than a full review, a question: the lead suggests that the "last inhabitants left only as recently as 1997." But the body states that it was 1962. This is confusing. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 17:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that this is confusing and suggest making the latter part of the lead "From an all-time peak of 375 people in 1901, the population fell to just 12 by 1961 and, save for the lighthouse keepers and their families, the last islanders left at the end of the following year."  Ben   Mac  Dui  18:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've reworded this as: "From an all-time peak of 375 people in 1901, the population fell to just 12 by 1961. The last native islanders left at the end of the following year, while the island's final abandonment came in 1997 when the lighthouse keepers and their families departed." Prioryman (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Closing comment -- Per this conversation, archiving as there should only be one solo FAC nomination per editor; this one has in any case not seen much activity for a while. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:55, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.