Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Suburbs of Johannesburg/archive1

Suburbs of Johannesburg
Self-nom. I have worked extremely hard on this article and had great assistance from several other people. After User:NicholasTurnbull finished helping me slave away with the map, I feel comfortable nominating this article for FAC. It is an extremely comprehensive look at the suburbs of the city of Johannesburg, South Africa, itself already a featured article. I have tried to look at both the social and economic importance of all the different areas of the city. Thank you! Páll 08:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Weak support Have added the numbered map Object none of my concerns have been dealt with Neutral: Its no doubt a good article but a few points: 1)Para 2: I don't like a place being compared with another, in size growth etc. A place should stand up on its own. 2) The term "suburb" used here is not clearly defined. I'm assuming that the word suburb in this case means an administrative sub-division of Jo'berg? 3) Terms are used such as ... Regions 2, 3, 4, and 7,.... Its hard to visualise or understand the same without a visual aid/map. The links are not helpful either. 4) A few differences would help. The suburbs are separated by a postal code is all that's mentioned. Is there an administrative head to the region? Are police jurisdictions the same throughout? Do they have an administrative headquarters? 5) A table would be nice to get an overview of the population, area, density, and if residential/commercial/industrial etc. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  18:34, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not compare it to another? Most people have never heard of JOhannesburg, and it helps to give a reference to the sprawl of the city. No, suburb means exactly what I have defined it as, a neighbourhood. The only difference about it from the rest of the city is its character, and the fact that it has a seperate post code. And there are about 1700 suburbs in the city, probably more. A tableis impossibel to make. And the regions are mentioned when a sublink is provided, and they are also mentioned in the upper map. Páll 21:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I find it absurd that Jo'berg is not heard of in the way you portray it. Its one of the most prominent African cities, not a small town. Even so, a line on Jo'burg's status would be helpful in the lead.
 * Absurd or not, most people do not know where Johannesburg is, or what it is. [[User:PZFUN| Páll  ( Die pienk olifant )]] 09:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Johannesburg, much like the city of Los Angeles, .... I am not familiar with LA's growth, and I'm sure the same can be said of umpteen cities around the world. I firmly state again: no place/region should be compared to another. Its like saying "county A" of England is equal to the size of province "B in China". It doesn't help a third party sitting in Brazil does it?
 * Most people are familiar with the fact that Los Angeles is an extremely large and spread out city with no real centre, although I will change that. [[User:PZFUN| Páll  ( Die pienk olifant )]] 09:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * "Suburb" is a very loose term and I ask you to please refine it. From the article on neighbourhood ".. neighbourhood is a geographically localised community located within a larger city or suburb...". So a neighbourhood is a subset of a suburb, but in this case it is equal to a suburb. I understand what you mean, but on what basis are East, North South etc classified? I'm sure there must be some rationale for separating them into six regions. Is it for administrative, geographic or just arbitary reasons?
 * I have defined it exactly as what it is. It is a neighbourhood. There is no particular rationale apart from convenience and the tendency for the different areas to be different from each other due to socio-economic reasons. There is no oficial distinction. [[User:PZFUN| Páll  ( Die pienk olifant )]] 09:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm asking you to refine it as, in my city suburbs have a different meaning. My city is made up of two districts, a city district and a suburban district. Together they make up the metropolis. Now the suburbs are clubbed under either the Western Suburbs or Central Suburbs, on the basis of the two railway lines that service the suburb's location. The term suburb is also used to all the townships/ stations which lie beyond the metropolis and are serviced by the city's rail network. And yes, the two have their own local flavours and post codes.
 * I was asking for the table for the six regions mentioned in the article, not the 1,700 locations. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  09:16, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem with tables like that is that most of that information is not known. There are only gueses as to the population of Johannesburg, although I'll see what I can do to get better census information. [[User:PZFUN| Páll  ( Die pienk olifant )]] 09:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Object. The image Image:Johannesburg1931.jpg is claimed to be GFDL.  I find this quite unlikely, as the image was taken in 1931. --Carnildo 20:02, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right. I changed it to PD, which it is. Páll 21:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Objecting again. The copyright status of Image:Pic-sandton.jpg needs to be resolved: is it a copyvio, or is it in the public domain? --Carnildo 03:38, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Support. A very interesting and informative article, with plenty of educational content, and has a good balance of topical coverage. Definitely a well thought out and thorough summary of the Johannesburg suburbs. The quality of writing is very good, as is the style of presentation of the article and the overall appearance of the article as a whole. In summary, a very good article. --NicholasTurnbull 21:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * (conditional) Support, Ok I'm lazy. I just happen to know more of Palls articles :-P Make sure that any remaining niggles are solved first though! :-) Kim Bruning 00:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Conditional opposition. First, the significance of the area mentioned is questioned. Second, the arrangement of images is quite messy and the distribution of images is quite uneven (some sections come with 3 to 4 pictures while some have none). Deryck C. 09:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The significance of what? What area do you mean? The images work absolutely fine on every computer I've looked at this article in, and I do not have images to use in the sections that have no photographs. [[User:PZFUN| Páll  ( Die pienk olifant )]] 09:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

*Object- Nichalp raises some good points. What is a suburb? Can it just be defined as a "neighborhood"? What is a "neighborhood"? Such a term is extremely vague and unclear. In addition, shouldn't the article be moved to "Suburbs of Johannesburg, South Africa"? Otherwise a well-written article. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 19:32, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Support A very thorough, well-written piece about the different suburbs/sections of Johannesburg. The article is very informative for those who do not live in the city or in South Africa in general. Nice work! Bumm13 07:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I've defined suburbs as best I can. Any discussion over the meaning of neighbourhood should be done on its separate page. why delve into huge explanations of what forms a neighbourhood in an article like this? There's no reason to. It should not be moved to Johannesburg, South Africa because wikipedia usually leaves major cities without top level designations, therefore New York City exists at New York City, not New York City, New York. The Johannesburg article itself does not use ", South Africa". User:PZFUN 03:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I see that the article should stay at its current name. Sorry... :-) Anyways, I still think the lead section/def. of "suburb" could be improved. The lead section is assuming that the reader knows information about neighborhood, suburbs, city, etc. The lead section neither defines the article nor does it tell what will be discussed in it. IMHO, it should start off with "The Suburbs of Johannesburg are the towns located within..." or something like that. Having the opening sentence saying that "The suburbs vary widely." is not a good start to the article, as the first sentence should define what the topic is about (see the Johannesburg article). Thus, I think the lead section could be rewritten. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 22:23, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey there, I just rewrote the opening paragraph. What do you think?  Páll  (Die pienk olifant) 03:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, that's better. Support. Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 16:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)