Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Surrogate's Courthouse/archive1

Surrogate's Courthouse

 * Nominator(s): Epicgenius (talk) 15:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

This article is about a historic building in Manhattan, New York City, erected in the 1890s and 1900s. The courthouse building, originally the Hall of Records, contains dozens of detailed facade sculptures and a vault-like lobby. Like the neighboring Tweed Courthouse (an FA), the Surrogate's Courthouse was mired in controversy through its construction, especially after the original architect died. The term "horganizing and slatterifying" was used to criticize the new architects. Unlike its neighbor, the Surrogate's Courthouse didn't receive the same level of opposition upon its completion, and it's mostly been used as a surrogate's court for New York state, as well as a hall of records. It is a National Historic Landmark and a New York City landmark, and it continues to be used as a courthouse.

This page was promoted as a Good Article a year ago and was recently copyedited through the GOCE, for which I am very grateful. I think it's up to FA quality now, and I look forward to all comments and feedback. Epicgenius (talk) 15:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Image review
 * Alt texts shouldn't duplicate captions
 * Fixed. Epicgenius (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * File:Surrogate's_Courthouse_2.jpg: what is the copyright status of the artwork pictured? Ditto File:Ceiling_mosaic_in_the_Surrogate's_Courthouse_(32325)a.jpg
 * Both are public domain in the US (where this building is located) since they were created in or before 1907. I have added the appropriate templates to the Commons file pages. Epicgenius (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * File:Surrogate's_Courthouse_-2.jpg: has this image been manipulated? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * This may well be the case, but I cannot currently obtain a non-manipulated image of the interior of the lobby (I can technically access the exterior, but I am not a NYC government employee or someone doing business inside). Epicgenius (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

A couple of comments on the lead from Chidgk1
Suggest removing some detail from: "The building was renamed the Surrogate's Courthouse in 1962 and, over the years, has undergone few alterations. The National Register of Historic Places includes the Surrogate's Courthouse as a National Historic Landmark, and its facade and interior are both New York City designated landmarks."

to read

"Renamed the Surrogate's Courthouse in 1962, the building has been little altered over the years and is a National Historic Landmark."

But we non-Americans don't know what a Surrogate's Court is so I think adding just a few words on that to the lead would be interesting.

Additionally, if you liked this comment, or are looking for an article to review I have one at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_Turkey Chidgk1 (talk) 13:52, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Additional comment)
 * Thanks for the comments. I have addressed both of these, although I think the NYC Landmark status is important, since the Surrogates' Courthouse was one of NYC's first-ever official landmarks. Epicgenius (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Support from Cas Liber
Taking a look now....


 * I'd link granite on first instance


 * In the Design section you have the word design(ed) in the first three sentences. Rejig and trim to remove one...maybe with something like, "The Surrogate's Courthouse was designed in the Beaux-Arts style by John Rochester Thomas initially; after his death in 1901, Arthur J. Horgan and Vincent J. Slattery completed the design/his work."

Otherwise seems ok in comprehensiveness and prose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I've done both of these. Epicgenius (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Support by Lee Vilenski
I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.


 * Lede
 * Are the two redlinks in the lede notable? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * From what I can find, these two architects were mainly local architects who performed relatively small commissions (like this firehouse in the Bronx). But since NYC is a big city, they may well be notable. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * facade - isn't there an accent on this word? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it can go either way. "Facade" without the accent doesn't show up for me with the "red line" alert underneath it. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * marble interiors - what's with the external link? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Whoops. That was supposed to be an internal link, I've fixed it. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Prose
 * "Pot Baker's" or "Potter's Hill", - why two different names? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I could not find sources that described why the names were different. These were the names used on maps though. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * The latter, depicting Justice and Authority, were removed in 1959[28 - I don't think this would be so difficult to reword to aboid the ref in not being after punct. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Caption of "main lobby" is a bit meh. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Reworded. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Forgive me, what is *Lessees" Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Lessees are the people who have leased a property. So basically tenants. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * $2.1 million - inflation? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Added. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I've addressed these issues now. Epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I really couldn't find much. Happy to support. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

 * I think you need to give the date of completion in the first sentence to give the context for the description rather than leaving it to the third paragraph.
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "The exterior contains fifty-four sculptures by prize-winning artists". An exterior containing sculptures does not sound right to me. Perhaps "The exterior is decorated with fifty-four sculptures by prize-winning artists" or "There are fifty-four sculptures by prize-winning artists on the exterior".
 * Done. Also, I removed the "prize-winning artists" fragment, as the article does not further explain the prize they actually won. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason you name the architects but not the sculptors? "prize-winning artists" sounds like unencyclopedic sales talk.
 * I added the name of the sculptors. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You say that the ground was low and then that the site is a hill. What is the explanation for this? If the hill is artificial you should say so.
 * "but have green and rose accents". I have not come across "accents" in this context before. A link or explanation would be helpful.
 * I've added a small clarification. The accent strips stick out against the normally blue-and-gold background. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "On opening, the Surrogate's Courthouse contained a small power plant in the basement".When did it close?
 * The problem is that I can't find any info on whether the power plant is still operating. I do know the building gets its power from the NYC power grid, but I don't know whether it also has its own generator, hence why it's worded like this. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "a grand jury had reported the old Hall of Records was "unsafe and susceptible to destruction by fire"". I would say "reported that the old hall". Is leaving out "that" AmerEng?
 * Yes, this is done frequently, though not always. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "However, the municipal building for which Thomas had prepared plans had been canceled in 1894.[67] Thomas was selected as architect upon the urging". This is ambiguous. "selected as architect for the new Hall of Records".
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Peirce filed a lawsuit in July 1898 to recover his payment". "to recover his payment" is a confusing expression. Maybe "to receive payment for the granite he had supplied".
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * "Horgan and Slattery would refurbish the not-yet-complete interior". Refurbish means renovate. Were they taking out decoration previously installed? If so, you should say so.
 * Technically, yes. The building was renovated before it was even complete, pretty much because of the corruption that surrounded the entire project. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * This looks fine. All these queries are minor. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:50, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. I've been able to address all of them now except for one. I believe the hill is a natural feature, but I'm not sure why the sentence is worded like that. The bottom of the hill was near a lake, though I have to confirm this with other sources. Epicgenius (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

A few comments from ZKang123
Taking a quick look through the page, which seems pretty comprehensive and well-written. Some minor issues: The article seems well-researched and well-cited. Can't see major problems with the citation styles. Will be willing to support.--ZKang123 (talk) 13:51, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Will the redlinks on the page be created soon? Especially with regard to the two architects in the lead.
 * Yeah, I plan to create articles on these two architects in a few months or so. Epicgenius (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Early to mid-20th century section: "News outlets reported shortly afterwards some of the building's "marble" was made of plaster, although this was consistent with the construction contract calling for "plaster enrichment". Suggest changing to "Shortly after its opening, news outlets reported that some of the (etc)". I would suggest splitting off the mention of the plaster enrichment construction contract as another sentence (e.g. Nevertheless/However, this was consistent with etc).
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Critical reception and landmark designations: Optional, but wonder if you would add a beginning sentence stating that reception to the building's design has been largely positive. Are there any negative commentary on the building design?
 * I've added a sentence to that effect. There weren't many negative criticisms of this building, which is fortunate because it really is a gem near New York City Hall. (I suspect people were too focused on the ugliness of Tweed Courthouse across the street.) Epicgenius (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I have addressed them now. Epicgenius (talk) 12:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Source review - pass
Version reviewed. Spotchecks not done.


 * Ref 2, "New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission" has Matthew A Postal listed twice. Recommend removing one, probably the editor parameter.
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ref 17 needs an author.
 * Added. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * New-York Tribune should be wikilinked in ref 25, not ref 35 (as wikilinks should be on the first instance)
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Ref 127 Wall Street Journal should be wikilinked, and probably changed to The Wall Street Journal to match our wikiarticle (unless this is the wrong newspaper)
 * Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Per WP:CITESTYLE, References need to have a consistent format. For books, sometimes the reference information is fully in the Citations section (ref 15) while other times the article has a harvnb template with the citation listed in sources (ref 63). Similarly, ref 69 seems to be a journal, when other journals have their citations listed in the citations and not in the sources section. One format should be used for citations that are similar forms of media (like books, journals, newspaper articles, etc.)
 * I don't know what that one book citation was doing in the sources section, so I moved it to the only place where it's used in the body (all the other books are in the body as well). Meanwhile, I've moved all the magazines to the "Sources" section. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not have concerns about the high-quality status of the sources. Please ping when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 02:52, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have addressed all your comments now. Epicgenius (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * My concerns have been addressed. This passes a source review. Z1720 (talk) 16:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Query for the coordinators

 * Am I allowed to nominate another page for FAC? This nomination has 3 prose supports (not counting ZKang's comment of his willingness to support), as well as an image and source review. – Epicgenius (talk) 13:49, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * You are. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:04, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 00:35, 25 September 2021 (UTC)