Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tammar wallaby/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 02:51, 6 July 2012.

Tammar wallaby

 * Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

This article has imporved since its last FAC and I now feel it gives a good summarization of the species. I would like to thank User:Axl and User:Rumiton for their help and User:Sasata for suggestions. LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Comment: This looks to me like a generally well-written and interesting article. Since I know nothing of the subject, I'll have to wait for more comments before I can consider a declaration; meanwhile here are a few issues I picked up in my read-through:-
 * I would clarify that by "range" you mean geographical range, if indeed that is the case.
 * I would expect to see in the lead or main article some indication of the total numbers of the species extant. Is it possible to do this?
 * "It was first described in 1817 by the French naturalist Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest, who named it for where it was found—an island he knew as Ile Eugene in the Nuyts Archipelago off South Australia". You should clarify that this naming refers to the binomial name, not to the common name ("tammar") generally used in this article.
 * The "Phylogeny" chart presumably means something to zoologists and biologists, but is impossible for someone (e.g. me) without specialist knowledge to interpret. A more informative caption would help.
 * The identification of page numbers by superscript characters is not a good idea, since many readers won't understand this convention. In the thousands of WP articles I must have read up to now I've not encountered it before. Why not put the page identification in the reference, as per normal?
 * Ref 30 links to an abstract; it looks as though login is required - if so, this should be noted.
 * The toolbox is showing a dead link. Check this out - it may be misinformation.

Brianboulton (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I have addressed points 1 & 3. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  23:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * 2: Unfortunately, none of the sources available actually gives the exact population number, not even the IUCN.
 * 4: Better?
 * 5: I felt citing it this way is nicer as it keeps the reference section looks cleaner and because I'm mostly relying on papers. I did the same for the giraffe article. I do however plan to use your method in the future.
 * 6: Ref 30 links to the Ph. D dissertation abstract and you can download the article there. No login is required to do this.
 * 7: The toolbox works fine for me. I can't find any deadlinks.

LittleJerry (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Images are OK from a copyright perspective, but File:Phylogeny of Macropodidae.png should really be replaced with Template:Cladogram. This provides added linkability, and (I believe) fewer accessibility issues. J Milburn (talk) 09:56, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, with my view settings, I can't actually see any lines on the cladogram. I left a note about it here. Axl  ¤  [Talk]  10:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Support Comments from Noleander
 * Missing connection: "The island's French name was given in honour of Eugene Hamelin, commander of the ship Naturaliste." -  Clarify that the word "Eugene" is significant here because it is the source of the scientific name of the animal.
 * Better?
 * The sentence is a bit convoluted now ... can it be split into two? - " It was first described in 1817 by the French naturalist Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest, who gave it the name eugenii based on where it was found; an island he knew as Ile Eugene—in honour of Eugene Hamelin, commander of the ship Naturaliste— in the Nuyts Archipelago off South Australia which is now known as St Peter Island."   --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed.


 * Restate subject: "Its common name is derived from the ..." - I presume "Its" here refers to the wallaby, which was last mentioned 4 sentences earlier; several nouns have interceded.  Rename the wallaby here.
 * Fixed.


 * Basic facts first: Population section starts with "Since European occupation, tammar wallaby populations on both mainland Australia and some of the islands have been greatly reduced or even eradicated. " - Yet the InfoBox indicates that there is no (or little) population problem.  If the latter is correct, that should probably be stated in the first sentence of the section.  Maybe move final paragraph up to top of section.
 * Moved last paragraph.


 * Clarify: "... and its peripheral testosterone is more concentrated. " - Concentrated in what? the blood? What does peripheral mean in this context?
 * Removed mention of peripheral testosterone.
 * I didn't mean for you to remove it ... just clarify. --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I know but it causes less trouble.


 * Clarify: " may face aggression from other males, which can delay ejaculations." - If you're going to include a sentence like that, you'll need to explain it :-) Why is the ej delayed?  Mental stress from the other agressors?  Or physical pushing matches?
 * Removed "which can delay ejaculations".
 * I didn't mean for you to remove it ... just clarify. --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I know but it causes less trouble.


 * Define: "... reproductive success by mate-guarding. During the estrous period,... " - What is mate-guarding. Does the following sentence define mate-guarding, or is it an independent observation?
 * Yes, the following sentence describes mate-guarding.


 * Confusing timeline: "It is a seasonal breeder and births largely occur during late January and early February ...The female tammar conceives again a few hours after giving birth, and suckles her young in her pouch for the next seven months... Gestation in the tammar lasts 26.5 days.. " - I'm very confused at this point:  If the gestation is about a month; and if they give birth annually in January, that means they mate 1 month earlier, in Dec.  But then it says they conceive immediately after giving birth, which would be Feb/March, meaning 11 months of gestation.  If the fetus/embryo is dormant for several months, shouldn't the gestation be > 6 months?       Suggest reword so other readers don't get similarly confused.  Spell out that timeline more clearly.  Readers shouldn't have to struggle to work out the timeline.
 * Fixed.
 * A sentence appears to be mixed up: "The female tammar conceives again a few hours after giving birth. and suckles her young for up to 350 days. "  It is not just the period: the two parts do not relate to each other. --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed.


 * Full story? "Tammars used for scientific study are housed in outdoor areas with access to water and shelter, which is closer to their natural habitat than a laboratory." - Is that entirely true? Are there no animal rights groups that protest over treatment of wallabys in labs?  Were they mistreated in the past and things have gotten better lately?   Even if they are kept outdoors, are their any animal rights concerns over their use in experiments, etc?
 * Removed the last sentence.
 * I didn't mean for you to remove it ... just add more material, if available. --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * On couldn't find any material on animal rights groups or anything.


 * Smell? "Tammars appear to respond more to the sight than the sound of predators. " - Not smell? the article earlier talks about using smell to find the pouch.
 * Added in information on smell.


 * Alt text for images: - Consider adding "alt" text for images. See WP:ALT.  Use the "alt text" button in corner of this page to display alt text.  Probably not required for FA, but it is useful for seeing-impaired readers of WP.
 * I don't really understand this.
 * Read WP:ALT ... it is a simple matter of adding the "alt" keyword into the image descriptors within the article. Something like:    ...|thumb|alt=A grey-brown furry mammal with big ears chewing on a leaf|right|...   --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Subspecies? "Skull differences distinguish tammars from Western Australia, Kangaroo Island and mainland South Australia. " - Is there a scientific word for these different groups? Subspecies?  Population groups?
 * Fixed.


 * Red vs green in map: What is the significance of the red vs green regions in the InfoBox map?  Explain color key in the map caption (even if colors explained in map WP page, reader shouldn't have to click-through to read it).
 * Fixed.


 * Unneeded word: "However, tammars from these areas were introduced to Kawau Island in New Zealand by colonial.." - Eliminate "however" here ... it is almost never useful.
 * Removed.


 * Footnote #1 missing period at end.
 * Fixed.


 * Caldogram: Maybe it is just me, but I find cladograms to be super informative, so it is a bit annoying that I cannot read the text in this one.  Also, when I click on this image, the font quality is pretty poor: jagged.  Recommend improving the font in the cladogram, and also enlarging it in the main article so readers can read the words without clicking.  This is more of a suggestion than a requirement.
 * Agreed. I removed the image.
 * I didn't mean for you to remove it, just improve it. Another reviewer above suggests using cladogram template.  Can you try that out (even though it may not work well with your particular configuration).  I'll let you know how it looks on my platform. --Noleander (talk) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know how to make a cladgram. Maybe I'll ask Graham Colm when he gets back.
 * I created a cladogram and put it in the article. Can you change the plain text species like M. parma into links M. rufus but instead link to the actual article, for each branch in the cladogram.   For example:  M. rufus  Do that for all the species in the cladogram.  That will make it super useful. --Noleander (talk) 01:37, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Is there any way we can make the cladgram appear on the left side?
 * I moved it to the left side by adding "align=left".  For future reference, the way I figured that out was to go to the cladogram template page cladogram and read the documentation.  It lists the handful of tweaks you can make to the illustration. --Noleander (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Poison: The Evolution section has over 50% of it devoted to resistance a particular poison. That seems a bit odd: evolution would encompass all sorts of traits: size, color, immune system, eyesight, intelligence, etc etc etc.  Singling out this one poison for emphasis is peculiar.
 * Moved information on posion resistance.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 13:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Overall a great article, very close to FA status. In particular, the prose is FA quality and does not suffer from some problems that are common in FACs.  Leaning to Support once the above items are addressed.
 * Thank you for your comments. LittleJerry (talk) 17:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the improvements you are making. You may want to focus more on quality than speed.   Ask yourself how each edit can make the article better for the reader, rather than just satisfying the whims of the reviewers :-)  --Noleander (talk) 21:24, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. LittleJerry (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That way I can see which goes to which :-) --Noleander (talk) 17:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


 * More comments from Noleander:
 * Quote? - "Sequencing of the tammar genome found "innovation in reproductive and lactational genes, rapid evolution of germ cell genes, and incomplete, locus-specific X inactivation"." - Why quote the source there? why not paraphrase?
 * I have a tough time paraphrasing stuff on genetics.
 * Okay, I'll see if I can work on it when I have some time.  A couple of other quotes that need to be paraphrased:
 * "its wide distribution,.."
 * "high levels of effective inbreeding ..."
 * ""very plentiful in many parts of t ..."
 * I mention these quotes because I'm pretty sure they would be a show-stopper at FAC. Articles should use quotes sparingly, only when it is a notable/famous remark; or when the statement is highly opinionated;  or when the statement cannot be paraphrased for some reason; or in a few other rare situations.  If you're not comfortable paraphrasing them, I'll do it soon.  --Noleander (talk) 16:33, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Paraphrased the other qoutes.


 * Caption: "Cladogram of the Tammar wallaby[2]" - reviewer above wants the caption expanded to explain what the meaning of the chart is.
 * I don't understand this.


 * Define: " tammars in the Eyre Peninsula and around Adelaide were decimated by battues " - No reader will know what a battue is; define or explain here.
 * Replaced.


 * Diet: should say if herbivore; carnivore, etc.
 * Fixed


 * Give reader a sense of size in lead: "The tammar is among the smallest of the wallabies, with females being smaller than males..." - Add "about the size of a large cat" [assuming that is true, I read is in a source] so reader can visualize the scale of the pics in the article.  Until I read that source, I thought they were much larger, 4' tall or so.
 * Fixed.


 * More precise: " .. making them distinct populations groups." - Why not say "subspecies"? that carries more meaning.
 * Added more.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 14:14, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. LittleJerry (talk) 16:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed to "Support" based on recent improvements. See comment below in sourcing: one source needs to be supplemented.  --Noleander (talk) 14:33, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Source review by Noleander
 * FN #5
 * article: Male tammars may live for around 11 years, while females live for 14 years.
 * source: Lifespan is approximately 11 years for males and 14 years for females.


 * FN #10
 * article: Tammars from these areas were introduced to Kawau Island in New Zealand by colonial administrator Sir George Grey in 1870
 * source: When colonial administrator Sir George Grey released a handful of tammar wallabies onto New Zealand’s Kawau Island in 1870, he may have inadvertently


 * FN #15
 * article: Four releases have been made, and a stable wild population of 100–120 animals now exists.
 * source: "The breeding program's been really successful. It started back in 2003 and we've done four releases now down to Innes National Park [on Yorke Peninsula in South Australia] ... maybe about 100 to 120 animals down in the wild," he said.


 * FN #20
 * article: As it lands, the energy of the jump is converted into strain energy made when its leg tendons are stretched. As it leaps back off the ground, the tammar can recover much of this energy for reuse though elastic recoil.
 * source: "In these gaits, the kinetic and potential energy that is lost when the animal lands is stored and subsequently recovered from the recoil of spring-like elements in its limbs and trunk, reducing the amount of work that the muscles must perform to reaccelerate the animal’s body during each stride.


 * FN #25
 * Tammars appear to have some colour vision: its eyes have only blue sensitive and green sensitive photoreceptor cones, allowing it to see colour in the blue-green band of the colour spectrum, but not the higher wavelengths in the red-yellow band. Nevertheless, in the band where it can see colour, it can differentiate between two monochromatic colours with wavelengths as close as 20 nm (2.0×10−8 m)
 * Source: not avilable


 * FN #30
 * article: The syndrome is known as tammar sudden death syndrome and the pathogen is an orbivirus of the family Reoviridae. It does not occur south of Sydney. Captive populations of tammar wallabies in New South Wales have subsequently suffered infections in summer months.
 * source: Source is good on this, but does not contain the phrase "tammar sudden death syndrome" … need another source for that name.


 * FN #35
 * article: They can also use their acute sense of smell to detect a predator.
 * source: Not available.


 * FN #40:
 * article: For the first half of the year, the presence of the joey in the pouch prevents the blastocyst from developing and experiments have shown that removing the joey within this first half will stimulate the blastocyst's development. However, after this the blastocyst remains dormant even after the joey has left. It begins to develop by the summer solstice in the end of December and the female gives birth around one month later.
 * source: not available.

Summary of source review: The article appears to accurately represent the sources. One minor issue is: Source   does not contain the phrase "tammar sudden death syndrome"; need another source for that name. End source review. --Noleander (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FN #45
 * article: .. and the full genome was sequenced in 2011
 * source: [publ in 2011] We present the genome sequence of the tammar wallaby, Macropus eugenii, which is a member of the kangaroo family and the first representative of the iconic hopping mammals that symbolize Australia to be sequenced.


 * Added another source which calls it by that name. LittleJerry (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, can you check WP:ALT one more time ... all you have to do is include a "alt=A grey furry mammal, chewing a leaf" etc to the images. --Noleander (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the need for these. LittleJerry (talk) 19:40, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The need is for seeing-impaired readers, including blind users of WP. They often have software tools that read out loud the text of web pages they are visiting.  When there is a picture with a caption, their software will generally read the caption, but they have no idea what is in the photo.  The purpose  of "alt" text is to provide text that their software tools can read out loud, so the user can get a feeling for what is displayed in the picture.  WP:ALT explains that the "alt" text should not replicate the caption, but instead should paint a picture - using words - of what is in the illustration. --Noleander (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Excellent article, thanks to Noleander for the good reviewing and source checking. I made v. minor copyedits. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 *  Comments Support - on prose and comprehensiveness grounds. Looks much more polished than when I looked at it last. Well done. beginning a read through now. I will jot questions below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:17, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Delegate note -- Hi Jerry, I could't see in the main body of the article where you clearly cited the assertion in the lead (which I trimmed slightly) that "It may have been the first macropod seen by a European". It looks to me like its first sightings by Europeans are described and sourced, but not the fact that it was the first of its kind to be seen. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:28, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 01:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.