Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Telopea oreades/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:41, 24 April 2015 (UTC).

Telopea oreades

 * Nominator(s): Cas Liber (talk · contribs) & 

This article is about a nice flower from cool and wet forests in southeastern Australia. Started reading as I was planning on trying to grow some...and so began buffing the article. There are two of us nominating so we should be able to address issues pretty quickly. I have scoured just about everywhere I can think of for info. Have at it, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose Can you possibly expand this article more? The last paragraph in the "Distribution and Habitat" section should be either expanded or merged (I highly suggest expansion). Also, I think the "Ecology" section should be expanded, because compared to the "Cultivation" section, it is inadequately small. If there's no more information, then it should stay as A-class; not big enough to be a FA, but better than a GA. Also, if known, shouldn't there be the status of the species (Least Concern, Near Threatened, Threatened, Endangered, Critically Endangered or Extinct) in the taxobox? For these reasons, I think it does not meet all the FA criteria (unless it can be expanded) and should be A-class. Gug01 (talk) 13:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Support See comments below Article should meet all criteria. Gug01 (talk) 14:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * what specific ecology information do you think it is missing that should be added? Size is not a criterion for FA status but comprehensiveness is. I am looking for something on its status, which is tricky as it is a default "not threatened" but need somewhere that states it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:09, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The species has not yet been assessed for the IUCN Red List, so we can't use an IUCN conservation status in the taxobox. I have added the species conservation status for Australia and Victoria (NSW previously mentioned) in the text. --Melburnian (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I've confused you, but I meant comprehensiveness. I've seen that you've nailed down the "Distribution and Habitat" section. Apparently you two have added both photos and information to the "Ecology" section, or maybe my eyes are just tricking me. At any rate, I'll make another post supporting the article, because I really believe its ready for FA status now. Gug01 (talk) 14:10, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments and support.--Melburnian (talk) 23:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Image license review by --Gaff (talk) 00:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * File:Teloreades1.jpg -- License looks valid. can you clean up the sourcing info with appropriate template?  Like the one you put on File:Telopea oreades bud.jpg?
 * formatted now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)


 * File:Telopea oreades Errinundra 01.jpg -- no concerns: license CC 2.0 from flickr. Source confirmed.
 * File:Telopea oreades seed pods 6838.jpg -- no concerns: cool image. License good: CC-SA own work uploaded by respected Commons contributor.
 * File:Telopeaoreadesrangemap.png -- Concern: Summary of the source map File:SoutheastAustralia MapLocator.png has a tag on it saying it needs review.  I cannot identify the source of that map.  The data set for the species distribution is an off-line source, so invking WP:AGF.  Also, should the map be moved to the infobox?
 * not sure what to do about that - best to ask at commons and either exonerate or nuke the parent file I guess....if nuked I will draw another one. Will ask over there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:04, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you or I could make a nicer looking map in SVG format. I'd be honored to assist, though suspect you can handle it. --Gaff (talk) 05:45, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Alright then, yer on - offer of help greatly appreciated and taken up. send me an email and I'll send you an image of the range from the book I have. I am not good with different file types...cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Will do. Moving the discussion to User:Gaff/Map_request to not muddy up this FAC discussion (and give me a chance to geek out that I have a map making project).  --Gaff (talk) 16:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * New map is up here File:Telopea_oreades_distribution_map.svg. The source map and data set are referenced on the file and should be good to go, but since I created it, maybe somebody else, such as  can review this image?  To clarify, the prior map has been upgraded d/t source and quality concerns.  New map needs review.  Thank you.  --Gaff (talk) 00:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Licensing is fine on new map, but I'm interested in the data: since the source is a heat map, how did you derive the distinct shape for distribution? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I will take that web-linked source down, since it is not the best source. See discussion here on better sourcing.  If you email either me or Cas Liber, we can send you a scan from the textbook source, which is considered definitive.  --Gaff (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Sourcing has been clarified on the file. Casliber has the book and sent me a copy of the figure, which we can email to anyone interested. That should be sufficient verification.  Gaff (talk) 04:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * File:Telopea oreades bud.jpg -- dubious source! Uploaded by someone named User:Casliber?! ;)
 * har har... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Some prose/MoS niggles and linking suggestions. More later. Sasata (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comments by Sasata
 * lead:
 * links: acidic soil; subspecies; hybridizes; cultivar
 * "(0.59–2.4 in)" first number looks a little too precise for this purpose (in description too)
 * all tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Description:
 * links: buttressed; lenticel; habit; obovate; spathulate
 * "easily seen vein which runs" which->that
 * crescent shaped nectary” hyphen needed
 * "It can be difficult to distinguish from T. mongaensis though the leaves of the latter species" I think "latter" should be used only when two or more things have been clearly identified in the sentence, so perhaps "It can be difficult to distinguish T. oreades from ''T. mongaensis’’ …"
 * all tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Taxonomy:
 * links: described; species name; disjunct; Monga valley (link earlier); Pleistocene; threatened; sclerophyll
 * all linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * could you either bluelink Nungatta Creek, or indicate generally where is is?
 * done --Melburnian (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "southeastern Australia which make up the genus" which->that
 * done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * non-break spaces are needed for short form binomials throughout article
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Still missing many nbsps ... (sorry, I should have indicated that these are needed throughout the entire article) Sasata (talk)
 * forgot about the names - added a bunch more now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:55, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Distribution and habitat
 * what is a tableland escarpment?
 * just an escarpment of a tableland, have linked escarpment now. Not sure about two bluelinks next to each other (i.e. if we're gonna link tableland) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:08, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ” However, there are unconfirmed reports”
 * removed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Ecology:
 * links: bushfire; plantsmen
 * "slower growing plants" needs hyphen
 * all done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Cultivation and uses
 * links: clay, frost; pruned; cutting; T. speciosissima; Dandenongs
 * "white flowered cultivars" hyphen
 * "Plantsmen have also developed several hybrids with T. oreades, looking to combine the hardiness of this species with the showier flowerheads of the latter." Confused as to what “this” and “the latter” species are here.
 * "larger shrub which may reach" which->that
 * "It is durable, yet can be readily polished and worked with," Is durable wood known to be harder to polish and work with? If not, perhaps replace "yet" with "and"
 * all done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
 * there's no redirect for the common name "mountain waratah"
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:55, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * this source states that "tree waratah" is another common name
 * can't see page that from Aus - looking for another ref to source the name added now Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:55, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * any other tweaks? cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:49, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Cassianto
 * Support with a few suggestions...
 * Lead
 * I think most visitors to the article would know where Australia is
 * delinked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "wet forest and rain forest" -- excuse my ignorance, but are these two separate? My point here is the repetitive use of the word "forest".
 * yes - wet forest is actually wet sclerophyll forest, which is still dominated by eucalypts and does burn from time to time. Will double check on best links damn sclerophyll only linkable option at the moment....need to figure out this later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Description
 * " When dried, the leaves appear to have granular texture" -- When dried, the leaves appear to have a granular texture?
 * oops - fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Taxonomy
 * "The Gippsland waratah was first formally described by the Victorian Government Botanist Ferdinand von Mueller in 1861 in Fragmenta Phytographiae Australiae, from material collected in rugged mountainous country around Nungatta Creek, a tributary of the Genoa River in south-eastern New South Wales."-- Phew, that's a bit long. Could this be broken up between "Australiae" and "from"?
 * Duly split - allows me to use Type (biology) to describe the material more easily and less tautologically be removing the "from" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:58, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Distribution and habitat
 * "Telopea oreades occurs in moist forests and temperate rainforests" -- would "moist woodland" be a suitable alternative?
 * sigh, no. woodland has a specific meaning of more open forest with less tree cover.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "... near Braidwood, New South Wales extending to Moss Vale.[5][3]" -- ref order
 * fixed Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:52, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

More to come (on both)  Cassianto Talk   08:12, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Conservation
 * "Telopea oreades is not listed under Commonwealth environmental legislation and is not considered to be rare or threatened in Victoria or New South Wales." -- not considered by who?
 * added "by respective state authorities" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Ecology
 * Looks ok


 * Cultivation and uses
 * "A selected white-flowered form from the Errinundra Plateau, which was originally known as 'Plateau View Alba' or 'Plateau View White' was registered by the..." -- seem to missing a comma: "A selected white-flowered form from the Errinundra Plateau, which was originally known as 'Plateau View Alba' or 'Plateau View White', was registered by the..."
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The timber is fairly hard and resembles silky oak (Grevillea robusta). It is durable, and can be readily polished and worked with, and is amenable for use in furniture, picture frames and tool handles. --"It is durable, and..." I don't think the comma helps here. Also, two conjunctions in the same sentence makes for slightly bumpy reading.  Suggest: "The timber is fairly hard and resembles silky oak (Grevillea robusta). It is durable and can be readily polished making it and amenable for use in furniture, picture frames and tool handles."
 * done Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a great little article!  Cassianto Talk   21:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Cwmhiraeth
 * In general, very good! A few points:


 * "Several cultivars that are hybrid forms with T. speciosissima have been developed, such as the 'Shady Lady' series, and are commercially available." - This sentence is awkwardly expressed.
 * rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "11–28 centimetres (4.3–11 in) long and 1.5–6 centimetres (0.59–2.4 in)" - 0.59 in. seems a bit overprecise.
 * tweaked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * In the lead and the description section you state "the flowerheads, known as inflorescences,". Isn't that tautology, equivalent to saying "the leaves, also known as foliage"?
 * I see your point - not quite though as inflorescence is a less accessible term to lay readers than foliage. I thought this was better than parentheses or an easter egg link. All sources on proteaceae seem to use inflorescence when discussing flowers so important to somehow mention.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * The description of the flowers and fruits is good and clearly written. Full marks :)
 * The only mention of the word "follicle" is in the caption to an image.
 * added and linked Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "(Privet Mock‐olive) (Notelaea ligustrina),[23] Banyalla (Pittosporum bicolor), Errinundra Plum Pine (Podocarpus sp. aff.lawrencei (Goonmirk Rocks)),[23] Errinundra Pepper (Tasmannia xerophila subsp. robusta)[23] and soft tree fern (Dicksonia antarctica)." - There are a few anomalies in use of brackets and in capitalisation of this list.
 * fixed --Melburnian (talk) 00:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "The prominent position and striking colour of Telopea oreades and many of its relatives within the subtribe Embothriinae both in Australia and South America strongly suggest it is adapted to pollination by birds, and has been for over 60 million years." - This sentence needs some extra punctuation.
 * two mdashes added (didn't want to make too many commas in one sentence... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "The wet forests it grows in are infrequently burnt by fire" - to me infrequently is equivalent to rarely or occasionally, and I think the rest of the sentence is oddly expressed.
 * they are "wet" forests and fires are rare. Not sure what is odd about the sentence Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * How about "The wet forests in which it grows seldom catch fire. When they do, the sclerophyll woodland becomes more open until slow-growing plants with larger leaves take over." Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Aah yes, I like that - have adapted and inserted a version thereof Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "Waratah seeds are often eaten by animals and do not travel far (several metres) from the parent plants." - Could you explain this? When seeds are eaten by animals, they often become widely dispersed.
 * the seeds are highly edible and not covered with anything, hence when they are eaten they are destroyed. Will look in source to see if I can add this from that. added this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * "Cultivars must be propagated by cutting to make new a plant identical to its parent." - This sentence could be better expressed.
 * rejigged Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:14, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * That's about it for now. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Support. I am happy with the changes made since I made my comments and now support this candidacy on the grounds of prose and comprehensiveness. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
 * thx! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Be consistent in whether books include locations
 * all added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Csiro or CSIRO?
 * capped Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)


 * FN38: page number? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:08, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
 * added Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:43, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:41, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.