Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terry Griffiths/archive1

Terry Griffiths

 * Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Terry Griffiths won the professional World Snooker Championship at his first attempt. Like other players of his era, he often found his progress in tournaments ended with defeat to Steve Davis; Griffiths's determination to match Davis led to changes in technique which commentators have said cost him his natural flair for playing. Griffiths retired the year after he dropped out of the world's top 16 players, and developed a successful career in coaching. I can provide relevant extracts from the offline sources to reviewers. Thanks in advnce for your improvement suggestions. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)a

Image review


 * Are there any images of the subject that could be added? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking on the image review, . I have searched for, and failed to find, any free-to-use images. Given that Griffiths is still active in coaching and other enterprises, I think it would be difficult to justify a fair use image - I can't see any points that would require an image to illustrate them. There are free-to-use images of some of other players such as Steve Davis and Ray Reardon, but I'm a bit cautious about adding those when there isn't one of the subject; but let me know if you think adding some other player images (with captions relating them to Griffiths) would be worthwhile. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support

 * Link grammar school?
 * "future Welsh national-team members" => "future Welsh national team members"
 * "Griffiths, now a bus conductor, had more time available to practise" - this reads a bit oddly. Suggest changing to "Griffiths subsequently began working as a bus conductor, a job which gave him more time to practise"
 * "Defending champion at the World Championship," - for total clarity, I would retain the "1980" which is currently piped out
 * The section heading "professional career" implies that his pro career only started at that point, but you already covered a big chunk of it in the previous section. Is there an alternative title that could be used?
 * "after the first of two-days' play" => "after the first of two days' play"
 * Note a needs a full stop
 * So does note n :-)
 * That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:48, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, . I've amended the aticle. I moved the part about Griffiths becoming a professional into the Early professional career section (and added the opponents and scores for his English Amateur Championship wins into "Early years"). Let me know if there's anything else. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:43, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * sorry to be a pain, but I'd still rather not have the two section headings "Early professional career" and "Professional career". The former implies a subset of the latter, which just doesn't seem right, especially given that the section currently headed simply "professional career" covers only his "declining" years.  Maybe it would be as simple as changing the latter to "Later professional career (1983–1997)"?  Or even just having all of his pro career as one level 2 section subdivided into 1978–1982, 1983–1989, etc......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, . I've gone for pro career as level 2 but happy to amend again if you think the other option is better. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:10, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments Support

 * In the lead, "Griffiths became world champion when he won the 1979 World Snooker Championship" feels redundant. The lead also makes so mention of Griffiths's lengthy amateur career, even though he did not turn pro until he was 30 and won significant titles before that point. I'd suggest this as a revision: After winning several amateur titles, including back-to-back English Amateur Championships in 1977 and 1978, Griffiths turned professional in June 1978. He qualified for the 1979 World Snooker Championship, his second professional tournament, and went on to defeat Dennis Taylor by 24 frames to 16 in the final, becoming the second qualifier to win the world title after Alex Higgins in 1972; only Shaun Murphy has emulated the feat since, in 2005.


 * Full stop needed after Ding Junhui in the last sentence of the lead.


 * I'd suggest that the section heads under Professional career should be formatted as 1978–82, etc. — the second year in a date span does not need four digits unless it falls in a different century (e.g., 1992–2002).


 * "was also playing in his first world-championship final" --> "was also playing in his first World Championship final" (caps, no hyphen).


 * "His first appearance at the Masters, it was his only win there." This could be confusing, as it may suggest Griffiths never again won a match at the Masters, when of course he did. I'd suggest: It was his first Masters appearance and his only Masters title, although he was runner-up at the event three times in the subsequent four years.


 * I might elaborate on the Crucible curse in the context of Griffiths, as he was the first. Suggested edit: With this first-round defeat, Griffiths became the first victim of the so-called "Crucible curse," a term later adopted to describe the failure of any first-time champion to defend their title at the venue.


 * No need to hyphenate team-mates — teammates is fine.


 * He also won the 1982 Irish Masters, defeating Davis 9–5. --> He also won the 1982 Irish Masters, his third consecutive title at the event, defeating Davis 9–5 in the final.


 * "After Davis was unexpectedly defeated by Tony Knowles in the first round of the World Championship that year, Griffiths became the bookmakers' favourite for the title he also lost in the first round, however, to Willie Thorne." Needs fixes for grammar. Would suggest: After Tony Knowles's surprise 10–1 win over Davis in the first round of the 1982 World Championship, Griffiths became the bookmakers' favourite for the title. However, Griffiths also exited in the first round, losing 6–10 to Willie Thorne.
 * I've amended thae article per the points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "Griffiths never again won a ranking event." This was actually true since his first world title — Griffiths won only one ranking title in his career — so I'm not sure why it's dropped in at this point in the article. It may misleadingly suggest that the previously described wins were at ranking events.
 * I've moved this up in the article. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The narrative of the 1986 World Championship could be fixed for chronology. How about: Two months before the 1986 World Snooker Championship, Griffiths began working with coach Frank Callan. After eliminating Higgins 13–12 in the last 16, he praised Callan for helping his game: "I tried to do the right things myself for three years ... Frank has knitted it all together for me. I didn't think anyone knew that much about snooker." He led eventual winner Johnson 12–9 in their quarter-final match, but Johnson won four consecutive frames, two with century breaks, for a 13–12 victory.


 * "Griffiths again reached the final of the World Snooker Championship in 1988, defeating Steve Longworth, Willie Thorne, Neal Foulds and Jimmy White, to reach the final before losing to Davis 11–18." No need to say twice in the same sentence that Griffiths reached the final. Suggested revision: At the 1988 World Snooker Championship, Griffiths defeated Steve Longworth, Willie Thorne, Neal Foulds and Jimmy White to reach his second world final, but lost 11–18 to defending champion Davis.


 * "After a 4–1 lead against John Parrott, Griffiths saw his opponent level the match at 4–4 by the end of the first session." Overly wordy? Suggested revision: Although Griffiths won four of the first five frames, Parrott tied the scores at 4–4 after the first session.


 * "Griffiths moved back into sixth place after the 1991–92 season, reaching two ranking tournament semi-finals and the semi-final of the 1992 World Championship with victories over Bob Chaperon, Neal Foulds and Peter Ebdon before losing to Stephen Hendry." This is a bit confusing as the World Championship is itself a ranking event. Suggested revision: Griffiths moved back into sixth place after the 1991–92 season, during which he reached three ranking semi-finals, including the semi-finals of the 1992 World Championship, where he scored victories over Bob Chaperon, Neal Foulds and Peter Ebdon before losing to Stephen Hendry.
 * I've amended the article per the four points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I find the presentation of Griffiths's retirement confusing. The article suggests that he retired after the 1996 World Championship when he was ranked 23rd in the world. Then it notes that he went on to play Mark Williams in the first round of the 1997 World Championship and says he retired at the end of the 1996–97 season, a year later than previously stated. Some clarification could be useful here.
 * Hopefully a bit clearer now; he announced his retirement in 1996, ranked 23rd, but came out of retirement for the 1997 World Championship. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * As winner of the world championship, UK championship and Masters during his career --> As winner of the World Championship, UK Championship and Masters during his career


 * "He has coached a number of top players, including Mark Williams, Marco Fu, Mark Allen, Ali Carter, Joe Perry, Barry Hawkins, Ding Junhui, Stephen Hendry and Stephen Maguire." Maybe put this list of players in alphabetical order?
 * I've amended the article per the two points above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! HurricaneHiggins (talk) 12:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for identifying those improvements, . Let me know if there's anyhting else. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for making the changes, @BennyOnTheLoose! Looks good now and happy to support. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 16:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Support by Lee Vilenski
I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.


 * Lede
 * current snooker coach and pundit. - we could probably avoid "snooker" here, as it's obvious from the context.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:49, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * He qualified for the 1979 World Snooker Championship, his second professional tournament, and went on to defeat Dennis Taylor by 24 frames to 16 in the final, becoming the second qualifier to win the world title after Alex Higgins in 1972; only Shaun Murphy has emulated the feat since, in 2005. - this is somehow one sentence. I'd rewrite In his second professional tournament, he qualified for the 1979 World Snooker Championship. He reached the final of the event where he defeated Dennis Taylor by 24 frames to 16. This was only the second time a qualifier had won the World Snooker Championship, after Alex Higgins in 1972 (and since only emulated by Shaun Murphy in 2005).  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Amended to something similar to your suggestion. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I do think it's worth noting that this was Terry's only ranking event win (I know the rules were different back then).  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:05, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Prose
 * "his power screws and long potting are second to no one's ... it will not be in the least surprising, if very soon he becomes a serious challenger for Snooker's top professional titles." - bit of a long quote - also no need for caps in snooker.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:11, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * "I'm in the final now, you know."[ - I've seen this a couple times, if it's not a full sentence, the punctuation should go after the quote.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:11, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * first try[13][3] - perhaps "appearance" or "debut" rather than "try".  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:11, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Griffiths offered to split the prize money. Virgo declined and later won the match, 14–13. - should probably explain it better that Virgo won, and there's probably a bit more to say about this.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:11, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Additional comments
 * Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list.  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . Ive made amendments to the lead. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:36, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi, is there more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:32, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Lee ? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:02, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Source review (voorts)
To come. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:43, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Everything looks good, and the sources are high quality, except for my notes below.
 * For citing books, instead of repeating the cite each time and changing the page number parameters, why not use the sfn and list the books in a separate section in the references?
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Sometimes BBC and its sub-outlets (e.g., BBC Sport) are italicized and sometimes not. This should be consistent.
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Some of the publications are wikilinked (e.g., Snooker Scene) and others are not (e.g., BBC and The Times). This should also be consistent.
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Change "Sixth ed.", "Seventh ed.", etc. to "6th ed.", "7th ed.", etc.
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The publisher and location for Snooker Scene is not necessary.
 * Removed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Chris Turner's Snooker Archive is an SPS and I'm not sure it meets the "high quality" requirement for FAC. In any event, the citations to that source are inconsistently formatted (compare, e.g., ref 34 and ref 67 to refs 62–66).
 * This site has been discussed on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard a few times, most recently at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_382 where I think there was a consensus that it is reliable. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The cites to Snooker Database are inconsistent. Also, the original site appears to be down. Finally, it appears to be an SPS.
 * I've used different sources instead. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Snooker.org is also an SPS and I have the same concerns about quality.
 * I've changed the source as it was easy to do so. It would be interesting to hear more about your concerns, as snooker.org is often used, e.g. it was for Cliff Thorburn. BennyOnTheLoose (talk)


 * Ref 1: I'm not sure if Snooker Zone is an RS. There's no editorial policy and it's run by just one person, but he has been covering Snooker for a long time. Also, the title needs fixing, as it is displaying as follows: "Three Top Tips from the Master Snooker Coach "Griff" Terry Griffithsâ€¦". (Note the double quotes for Griff and the random characters at the end.)
 * I've removed this from Template:Infobox snooker player/nicknames as it's certainly not a widely applied nickname. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 2: I'm a bit confused by the structure here; is this a cite to an article about the Queen or about Griffiths?
 * It's essentally a list of the awards from the 2007 Birthday Honours, with some commentary. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 9: Use the edition parameter.
 * Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 13: Needs cites to page numbers.
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 37: Needs a page number.
 * Unfortunately, NewsBank doesn't always provide a page number, as in this case. I've added a via NewsBank parameter. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 39: Needs a publisher.
 * It's a self-published source - see here for something on Downer, including a claim that the annual Almanac has "become a key resource for commentators and journalists alike". Snooker journalist Dave Hendon wrote (about the 2010 edition) that it was "A major undertaking for Downer, whose efforts should be applauded. The almanac has become indispensible during the championship and is as comprehensive a reference resource as any sporting event could hope for."(Hendon, Dave, "New Almanac ready", Snooker Scene, September 2010, p.30) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Ref 42: Title needs to be capitalized.
 * Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

That's all I've got. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, . Let me know if anything else is required. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I will get to this today or tomorrow. Please ping me if you don't hear from me after 48 hours. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:07, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * One more thing: Ref 73 should use bullets for multiple sources, like ref 94. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:05, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks,, I've amended that. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:55, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Source review passed. If you have time,, would you mind taking a look at this FAC? In particular, it needs a source review and spot check. Best, voorts (talk/contributions) 23:52, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments from JennyOz
Hi Benny, thanks for this bio. I have a few comments...

Lede Professional career 1978–1982 1983-1989 1989-1997 Later career Career finals Notes References Template
 * It was his the only ranking event victory - remove his
 * reached the final of the 1989 European Open - tweak link
 * tournaments, Griffiths' determination - Griffiths' s
 * potting the pink ball and went in off, - in off link needs fix
 * and Jim Meadowcroft 9–6 - add link
 * and the first to win it at the Crucible - add location?
 * in front of a 2,323 spectators - remove a
 * His first appearance at the Masters,[26] It was his first Masters appearance - something awry here
 * so-called "Crucible curse," a term later - move comma outside quotes
 * Griffiths and his Wales teammates retained the 1980 World Challenge Cup for Wales, - are both "Wales" necessary? or maybe, 'and his Welsh teammates'?
 * he moved up four places in the rankings to 10th - no ranking previously mentioned
 * after Davis recovered from 3–8 to 8–8 - after Davis had recovered?
 * I tried to do the right things myself for three years ... Frank has - format ellipsis
 * He took the Pot Black title in 1984 - this one out of chronological order?
 * defending champion Davis.[19][41]The players had - add space
 * to sixth, at the end of the season.[45]The - add space
 * fell from sixth to 11th place at - mos:num, make both same format
 * he reached three ranking semi-finals, including the semi-finals of the 1992 World Championship - no need to repeat semi-finals? perhaps 'including that of the 1992'
 * His best performance at a ranking tournament the following season was the - link 1992–93 snooker season
 * "natural flair."[55] Burn - move full stop out of quote
 * Griffiths resigned as the WPBSA director - add this acronym at first mention of World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association
 * Sources for the ranking and ron-ranking final - typo non
 * note k Snooker Scene reported - add italics
 * cite 13 Everton 2012, p. 73–74. - pp
 * cite 34 Everton 2012, p. 95–96. - pp
 * BBC Cymru Wales Sports Personality of the Year - mention this accolade in prose?

Misc
 * no available bio info on marriage, family? (only mention is "His son, Wayne Griffiths, is head snooker coach...")

I have not checked the various tables. Pls let me know if you need clarification on any of my notes. JennyOz (talk) 03:13, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, . Hopefully I've addressed everything from above, but please let me know if anything else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:05, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Benny. I have just made a few minor tweaks, pls check. I am happy to s'port promotion. JennyOz (talk) 06:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)