Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Boat Race 2019/archive1

The Boat Race 2019

 * Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

We've been doing this a few years now, once the dust has settled, each Boat Race article is there, or thereabouts, good enough for FAC. I look forward to addressing any concerns. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Comments and support from Gerda
Quite impressed by a FAC the day of the event, I don't want to postpone comments, few, I guess:

Please check tense, - I believe that at least the image caption of the course has a future which is now past.

Background


 * "The autumn reception" is not obvious to someone reading this article and none before.
 * Why "The 165th men's race", and not just "the men's race", like "the women's race"?

Trials
 * please get top pics aligned, and do something about the overlong image caption for "Men"

I expect that some press coverage will follow, and come again. Nice work so far! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * that's all addressed, thanks. I appreciate any comments, but you're right, it will evolve in due course.  But it's probably 90% complete.  And given the glacial movement of FACs, if this gets promoted before July, I'd be surprised, so let's get all the technical crap out of the way!! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:02, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't comment on what will come ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course, but the 90% is still there. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, read and commented. Perhaps I'll see more in daylight, but for now, that was all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:21, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

I looked at reception, and is it my lack of English, or is what the rower says (last sentence) a bit too rich in "that"? - Let me know if you are done with Reception, please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think you're right, so I've removed one instance, see what you think. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:03, 10 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I support now, but think one more "reaction" would be nice, aller guten Dinge sind drei ;) - Good sports! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:31, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Support
Support It is remarkable how the enthusiasm of one editor and his ability to communicate it make even the most uninterested reader (i.e. me) read on with enjoyment in an article about rowing. I have reviewed a few of The Rambling Man's Boat Race articles before, and this is well up to, and I think, even better than, his previous standard of excellence. He and I have had exchanges of views about some drafting points in the past, but I find nothing to quibble at here. Admirably clear, in the best English, and engaging. I take comprehensiveness and good sourcing as givens, and, as I have remarked before, you couldn't guess whose side the author is on unless you happened to know. (I see The Guardian is getting its undergarments in a convolution about the age of this year's competitors. Worth a mention? I just raise the point - ignore ad lib.) Regardless of that, one way or t'other, happy to support this high-speed and excellent arrival.  Tim riley  talk   18:18, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, and thanks for your kind words. I did take into account previous comments of yours when it came to some of the style of prose, so I'm glad it's hit the spot.  I will definitely look to expand the reaction a little, as you note, there has been some cynicism over the Cracknell inclusion (and not just from the Grauniad), so this should definitely get some coverage in the article.  I'm on it.  And thanks again for your comments.  The Rambling Man (talk) 18:22, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's just a shame the Grauniad don't have TRM on their copyediting team. Then they might avoid strange head-scratchers such as "The enduring consequences include the end of his marriage, about which his wife, Beverly Turner, has written affectingly." &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 08:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, what bilge. Never mind.  I'm still trying to work out a NPOV way of factoring in the "horror, think of the kids" reaction to Cracknell taking part (and I don't want it derailed by his "affecting" wife's comments, so more soon, but a rapid turnaround trip to Belfast has left me somewhat jaded in preparation for my birthday in 56 minutes.  I'll be here most of tomorrow to celebrate with all of you who love me so much...... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:05, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Many happy returns, dear boy! And many returns to your fine WP articles too, I hope.  Tim riley  talk   20:41, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Support I agree with everything Tim says, great stuff. I wonder if you need the second "2019" in the very first sentence, but I'll leave that with you Jimfbleak - talk to me?  12:46, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks Jim, I think I'll leave it for now as it simply matches all the other 163 articles...! Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Fair enough... Jimfbleak - talk to me?  10:46, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Support
My attention was drawn to the Crews table, and I noticed Sophie Deans is listed as an Australian/New Zealander. That's surprising, considering her father is a former all-black. ("Robbie Deans' daughter Sophie Deans wins historic Boat Race") So I went to the cited source and couldn't find it. The team is listed, with their weights, but not their heights. I think another sources was used to construct the table? Hawkeye7  (discuss)  02:24, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, my bad. It's from the official Boat Race website, I'll add.  The Rambling Man (talk) 07:06, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:08, 10 April 2019 (UTC)


 * There's a fine image of the women's race. A pity space could not be found for it in the article.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  18:50, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That's true. It's good that the main page is featuring an image from the women's race rather than the men's race.  The FAC in question actually features the women's trophy in the infobox, along with two women after whom the trial boats were named, I've worked hard on this aspect.  The Rambling Man (talk) 22:01, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And as someone who does a lot of work with women's sports, this has not escaped notice, and is greatly appreciated.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:29, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added a "multiple image" template in the race section which now has both the women and men completing their victories. Not the best images in the world, nor does the subject matter lend itself to easy cropping (everything's short and wide), but they're both featured now and I think it works a little better in overall format anyway.  The Rambling Man (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Sources review
Other than the matter of The Sun, sources appear to be of the required standards of quality and reliability. Therer are no issues relating to formatting. Brianboulton (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No spotchecks carried out
 * All external links are working according to the external links checker tool
 * Quality and reliability: I am disappointed to see The Sun cited among the various newspaper sources. I thought that we had established that tabloids are not acceptable as high quality, reliable sources. The Sun is used to verify the statement: "Cambridge's Blondie and Goldie won the women's and men's reserve races by five lengths and one length respectively." Can this information be cited to a more acceptable source?
 * I thought that was only The Daily Mail but no worries, I'll replace it with the only other source I've since found. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * All done. Thanks for the check.  The Rambling Man (talk) 15:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Image review


 * Suggest using upright rather than fixed px size for the caricature
 * No, too big, see comments above. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Phelps image could use alt text
 * Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * File:Marie_Curie_c1920.jpg: when/where was this first published?
 * No idea, not my image, but used extensively, including in the GA for Curie. If it's a breaker, is File:Marie Curie 1903.jpg any better?  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


 * That one is missing a US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * File:Bertha_von_Suttner_nobel.jpg: source link is dead, needs US PD tag, and if the author is unknown the life+70 tag may not apply (certainly feasible for a 1905 photographer to have lived longer than that). Nikkimaria (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Once again, used extensively, but if it's a breaker, is File:Bertha-von-Suttner-1906.jpg any better? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


 * That would work if we can demonstrate pre-1924 publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, clearly I can't do that. I'll just delete both images as it seems too difficult.  I was trying to include more images of women but that's clearly a bridge too far for my inadequate image licensing capabilities.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:50, 13 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment I think we're done here, nothing for a week, no opposes, sources and images checked, let's not let another candidate wallow for months on end... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:31, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Any thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:20, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Anyone? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Anyone care to say why this has now languished without comment yet unanimous support for two weeks? Little wonder there's not much faith left in FAC these days if we get precisely zero feedback from any of the delegates/directors despite requests being made nearly ten days ago.... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Languished? This FAC has only recently passed the three-week mark, which is when things start to get closer scrutiny -- if you want quicker attention why not try using the  ping per the instructions? It works for most people...  There are older noms than yours with support that I'll be processing before this one, but if you want leave to nom a new article, feel free. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, languishing. Nothing for nearly two weeks.  It's had scrutiny, source checks, image checks, and full support.  Thanks for getting round to the response. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Oppose
I haven't commented on an FAC for a long time, but TRM's request for feedback caught my eye. I should admit that I don't know much of anything about this sport or this event. But I do have some opinions on the writing quality:


 * "They were also live-streamed on YouTube, and by multiple media organisations around the world including Germany, South Africa and China." – Germany, South Africa, and China are not media organizations.
 * Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:16, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "The 74th women's race was umpired by Richard Phelps, a former rower who successfully represented Cambridge in the 1993, 1994 and 1995 races." – Was 2019 the 74th women's race? This is the only part of the article that refers to a 74th race. If someone is not familiar with the Boat Race, this kind of language will make them stumble.
 * I don't understand, you got it spot on, the 2019 race was the 74th race. Besides, the Background section covers this in sufficient detail.  Any more detail can be found at Women's Boat Race.  The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is the first time in the article that you refer to a "74th" anything. For someone like me, who is coming to the article with little previous knowledge of the Boat Race, it disrupts the flow of my reading to interpret what "74th" means. Especially since the races have not been held every single year since 1927 and 1829. In the lead of the article, it may be helpful to say something like, "This was the 74th women's race, and the 165th men's race." Zagal e jo^^^ 02:16, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I really honestly don't follow your logic but I've added your requested sentence into the lead. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It's just a little extra thing to provide a smoother reading experience. Thanks. Although one other thing I just noticed: the lead does say that the race is "held annually". From what I can tell, the races have not been held every single year since the start. Things were kind of erratic during the 19th century, there were gaps during the World Wars, and the women's race didn't become an annual tradition until the 1960s. Maybe we could drop "Held annually", since now, the lead has another sentence that establishes the long history of the event. Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it's annual now. For the history, see th main article. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You do have some history in this article, though. For example, the first part of the "Background" section. If you're going to mention some of this history, I think you need to acknowledge some of the nuances. Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It is an annual race. This is an article about specific year. For more history see the main article. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Let me try to explain this another way. The article presents several facts that, taken together without extra context, don't add up. I'm told that it's an annual race, that was first held (for men) in 1829, and that the men's race has occurred 165 times. The math doesn't work. If I look at the navbox, I can deduce that the race was not held every year since 1829, but I shouldn't have to interrupt my reading to scroll down to the navbox. I don't think that this article should be completely "self-contained" -- I wouldn't expect you to explain all the rowing terms, for example -- but if you're going to mention these specific facts, the article should acknowledge why the numbers don't add up.
 * I think you could retain "Held annually" in the lead if you explain somewhere else how long it's been held annually. Zagal e jo^^^ 00:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well it is held annually. For the specific history of the race, you can use the main article or the featured list List of The Boat Race results.  I don't think any of our readers are "doing math" between the infobox and the number of the event in any case.  The Rambling Man (talk) 09:21, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * OK. I've said what I wanted to say on this matter. Zagal e jo^^^ 15:22, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "He has previously umpired the men's race once, in 2014." – This verb tense will become dated.
 * Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:16, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "The 165th men's race was umpired by Rob Clegg who rowed for the Dark Blues in the 1994, 1995 and 1996 races." See similar comment above. I assume that 2019 was the 165th race, but that’s not immediately obvious, especially if the first race was in 1829.
 * Again, your understanding is spot on, and the history is covered in brief in the Background section and further information can be found in the The Boat Race article. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * See my response above. A single sentence would clarify things for readers like me. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Oxford's trial race was held on the Championship Course on 7 December, between Reggie and Flea, named in commemoration of Second Lieutenant Reginald Fletcher, who rowed for OUBC in the 1914 race, and Lieutenant Colonel William Fletcher, a member of the Dark Blue crew in four consecutive races between 1890 and 1893." – Where does "Flea" come from? The nickname is only mentioned in a caption in the William Fletcher article.
 * The article says the boats are named in commemoration for the two individuals, the source of the nickname is not relevant to this article. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Flea" is an interesting nickname. You've caught my attention. I want to learn more about it. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure, but it's not directly relevant to this specific article. What's needed here is the name of the boat and the origins, if you want more on Flea then that should go in Flea's article.  The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Flea" is not an obvious derivation from his given name, so the origin of the boat's name is not complete. Looking at this, I get the impression that "Flea" was an ironic nickname, since he was a large dude (for the standards of the time). We don't have to go into a paragraph-long explanation of the nickname. A short, parenthetical aside would help. Or if not that, we could refer to William Fletcher as "William 'Flea' Fletcher", to at least establish that "Flea" was a nickname, and then use the William Fletcher (rower) page to explain the nickname in more detail. Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This is all interesting stuff for the individual's article, but sufficient detail exists in this race article. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Shrugs Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "It took place without Oxford's president, Felix Drinkall, who was absent due to injury." – Antecedent for "It" is not clear. There are lots of nouns in the previous sentence.
 * Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "Cambridge's men's trial took place on the Championship Course on 10 December, between Roger and Lancelot, also named in honour of two alumni killed in action during the First World War." – "Also" is jarring; the First World War has not been mentioned to this point.
 * Also removed. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "The final race, from the Bandstand to the finishing post, was dominated again by Cambridge who coped with the difficult conditions better than their opposition, to win by three and a half lengths." – I would add a comma after "Cambridge" and drop the comma after "opposition".
 * I wouldn't, horses for courses this one. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Your comma usage, in general, is a bit iffy at times, but arguing over commas gives me a headache. If someone else wants to chime in, I'd appreciate it. Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Charming. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe I should clarify. It's more often the lack of commas that bothers me. For example: "Donald Legget, who rowed for the Light Blues in the 1963 and 1964 races acted as a supporting coach, along with coxing coach Henry Fieldman (who steered Cambridge in the 2013 race) and the medical officer Simon Owens." -- Why is there a comma after "Legget", but not one after "races"? Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Feel free to copyedit my “iffy” comma usage, I’m not going to debate every sentence. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, am I wrong about this one? Zagal e jo^^^ 00:46, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not in your opinion, obviously. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:21, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It's the same sentence structure as one of the examples here: "Fred, who often cheats, is just harming himself." Zagal e jo^^^ 15:22, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well since my ability to use commas is so "iffy", feel free to copyedit the article to your preference as it's clear that I'm not capable of doing that job properly. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You're still acting like you don't believe me, so I'd rather disengage. Good luck. Zagal e jo^^^ 16:23, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * There's no act. You simply stated my general usage of commas was iffy, so it seems unlikely that this dripfeed will cease with just adjusting a single iffy comma instance.  If it's such a deal breaker, you can fix it yourself of course. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "The fixture between CUBC and OBUBC, due to be held on 13 March 2019 but postponed because of adverse weather, was held on 24 March." – Why jam so much text between the commas? This could flow more naturally.
 * Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Better. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * "At around 3.30 p.m., police dispersed a protest by 'Cambridge Zero Carbon' and 'Oxford Climate Justice Campaign' on Hammersmith Bridge. Both organisations were protesting against investments by both universities in fossil fuels." – This sounds interesting. Is there more to say?
 * No, they appeared on the bridge and the police dispersed them. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What was the nature of the protests? Signs, chants, etc? This is a chance to add some extra flavor to the article. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not really, it's a passing protest which was quickly quelled by the local constabulary. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Your reference provides a lot more information. Why is the Wikipedia article so coy about this aspect of the event? Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Because the article is about the race and only needs cover tangential events in summary style. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Shrugs Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The quotes in the "Reaction" section are so bland. Did no one else talk about the race?
 * No, the afterparty is rather dull these days. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, for an event that's supposed to have viewers around the world, I'd expect something more. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:26, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * It isn't "supposed" to have viewers around the world, it does have viewers around the world, and yes, it's a shame isn't it, but I can't just make up stuff that doesn't exist. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Did viewers think these were especially exciting races? Was there any sort of audience reaction worth noting? With the Super Bowl, it's easy to find articles like this ("That Super Bowl was so boring"). Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't know what viewers thought, I simply used the reactions that I could find. Feel free to add more if you can find them. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I guess I'll take your word for it. Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You don’t have to do that, as I said if you can find anything else, feel free to add it. ||
 * Why "south-west" and "team-mates"? Those hyphens seem quaint. Is that a British English thing? (You do use "teammate" at one point, though.) Zagal e jo^^^ 02:35, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Not quaint, much more readable than the American affectation to remove all hyphens to produce horror shows like "reenter".
 * I guess I don't really care, as long as you're consistent. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * All addressed, thanks . The Rambling Man (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2019 (UTC)


 * One other general point: there are several times in the article where you refer to "poor weather conditions" or "deteriorating conditions". Could you maybe be a little more descriptive? That would make for a more enjoyable read. Zagal e jo^^^ 02:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well I'm paraphrasing sources so as not to infringe copyright. I think it's fine, but feel free to modify it as you prefer. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I've never been rowing, so I may not have the best vocabulary to describe racing conditions. I'm not looking for extra-flowery language, just a bit more detail. What are "deteriorating conditions"? Bad winds? Big waves? Sea monsters? ;) Zagal e jo^^^ 15:42, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Any of the above, conditions which adversely affect the ability to row. No-one needs to be an expert or even have to have rowed to appreciate what "deteriorating conditions" means in this context. 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Shrugs Zagal e jo^^^ 18:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * addressed once again. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
 * responded again. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Coord note -- Some very worthwhile points were raised here and the nominator has made reasonable attempts to action those. The few that are outstanding are, in my judgement, somewhat subjective (although I do agree with a few of the comma suggestions, and have implemented myself). I think therefore it's time to put this one to bed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:06, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:07, 6 May 2019 (UTC)