Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 06:57, 6 July 2009.

The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest

 * Nominator(s): ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  02:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I've admittedly spent an embarrassingly long time on this article after getting some free time this month. I'll summarize the changes since the last FAC:


 * Researched a ton of new and obscure academic search databases and newspaper sources, rounding out references to 145.
 * Found good international information on the marketing push and series airing in other countries.
 * Reorganized the critical reception section to go in order of comparisons to classic Quest, premise success, characters and cast, and animation and sound quality.
 * Per my new searches, added a lot of new information to the article, and reorganized the first history and development section. I only touch on the biggest changes to the original Quest premise there now, having moved some character and premise commentary down to the Creative Premise and Characters sections.
 * User:SandyGeorgia helped tremendously to fix up and format references.
 * Placed punctuation outside quotation marks where appropriate.
 * Added an image to the marketing section and replaced images with clearer versions.
 * Got rid of the awkward reliance on quotations from the sources; the article should read much more easily. There are still several quotes; I kept some since they made sentences more succinct and concise versus paraphrasing.

If there are any loose ends...


 * Haven't touched some of the numbers (twenty-six instead of 26), so right now, numeric numbers include only huge dollar figures, character ages, and some figures in the Quest World Adventure paragraph. I have no opinion on which is better, so if it'd be better to replace words with figures, I'm ready.
 * I have about five sources that I'm still waiting on through interlibrary loan. To my knowledge, three reference the show's animation in passing, while the other two are mostly about the marketing drive (which will probably add nothing new). I don't think these sources will radically change the article or warrant a breach of stability in the FA criteria. (There are still 8-9 web link sources about the show that will probably never be recovered and aren't in the Wayback Machine. They aren't used in the article, obviously.)
 * I'm trying to get a free image replacement for the digital style guide in the marketing section. I own the physical style guide for the series, but I'm not sure if I could take a picture of it (since it's mostly art assets) and pass it off as public domain. There are other options, like pictures of action figures or other merchandise, and I plan to try and e-mail a staffer for the show in case they have any items of interest that they can make a free image with. (This may not pertain to the FA so much as it will to an effort to get Today's Featured Article.)

There's probably more that I'm forgetting. Anyway, I'm glad to be bringing this back, since I feel it represents what one empowered Wikipedian can do (well, with a university subscription to academic search engines and libraries, too). WP:TV doesn't seem too fleshed out, so I based some of my style decisions on convention at WP:VG, which I'm more familiar with. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  02:22, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * First, welcome back, Zeality. It is always good to see such major contributors coming back from long breaks. Anyways, could you clarify what QuestFan.com/wiki is, its role in the article, as well as your role with QuestFan.com, with direct reference to Reliable sources? I ask because it seems to be a wiki that is maintained by you and I would like assurance that it satisfies the criteria for reliable sources. Thanks. --maclean 06:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a fan site I set up in 2007 coinciding with my research on the series. It's much like the Chrono Compendium, which served (for Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, and Radical Dreamers) as a repository for any hard to find information or images that were notable enough to be included in the Wikipedia articles but would never, ever be found in third-party sources. WP:VG maintains...


 * Okay, it did maintain that fan sites could be admitted if they offered unique, notable information which seemed legitimate to peer reviewers, but it seems that's been excised, so I'll have to ask why at the project. It was useful because in WP:VG, a plethora of video games are made and promoted in Japan only. When it comes to translations of commercial materials, interviews, development history, or other information about the games, the community has to rely on fan translation. This was used to improve Chrono Trigger dramatically; its development section went from being nearly nonexistent to a core part of the article. Another issue is that video games, defunct television shows, etc. are usually pop culture affairs that don't receive the treatment of serious academic subjects or news events, and so references and information are hard to come by. The Chrono Compendium would host the translations and allow a citation in these cases. While some people have questioned this use, WP:VG would almost always support this stance.


 * I was going to use that rationale for QuestFan, but it seems WP:VG has pulled the appearance of consensus out from under me by removing that part of their guidelines. I've basically used the site to archive Internet and print sources related to the show. Rather than call everything into question all at once, I'll go ahead and make a preliminary defense of some items:


 * #4: This is the writer's bible to the show, written by Peter Lawrence and edited by Glenn Leopold; on the page, both versions are juxtaposed. These became available after the show's cancellation through photocopies auctioned on Ebay. There are currently no auctions for it to back up this claim with some visual evidence; sorry. The bible is incredibly important to the creative premise and character sections of the article. While these sections could stand without referencing (anyone who's watched the show would immediately recognize the assertions), there are a few quotes and excerpts that would need some kind of note. It's also used elsewhere in a few cases in the article.
 * #6: This is a document that writer Lance Falk wrote in 1997 and published on AOL's Quest newsgroup while it was still up. It's used for much of the second season changes. Again, any fan of the show knows that all the assertions in that section are correct, but it is used in a couple other places in the article thanks to its look at the show's development. You'll notice the attitude and writing style are backed up by reference #7, which is a true trade journal interview with Falk. Lance Falk is on Myspace and is able to be contacted; I spoke with him a few times in 2007 to make sure some of the facts were straight about the second season changes, although I didn't self-publish this stuff; it was just asking for him to fact-check. (I also asked yesterday if he can fact-check the article in its current state.) Falk appears on the classic Jonny Quest DVD 2004 release as an expert on the subject, so you can match up his picture there with the one for his Myspace profile if you need some proof it's him.
 * #35: Fan FAQ published in 1998 again in the AOL newsgroup, containing a quote from Larry Houston and one from Lance Falk.
 * #37, #75, #76: These are AOL Quest newsgroup commentaries for specific episodes posted by Lance Falk, used for a couple season two changes assertions (again, recognizable by fans of the show).
 * #42: Francois Lord's comments posted to the AOL newsgroup in 1996-1997. He's name-checked in the article as a QuestWorld animator, and his story corroborates what happened to Buzz F/X (it filed for bankruptcy thanks to the difficulty of the Quest contract) and also Sherry Gunther's / Alberto Menache's criticisms. It's sort of an important reference because it gives an in-depth look at the hellish schedule the animators worked on.
 * #70: Vehicles. This is just an in-universe encyclopedia page at QuestFan with images of the vehicles described in the sentence referencing it.
 * #78: These are fan questions I submitted to Lance Falk in 2007. There's a lot of unique information on that page, but I haven't used it in the article because it's unabashed original research, and though I could argue it from the same point, I don't want to push my luck.
 * #80: These are fan questions from the Jonny Quest mailing list given to Michael Benyaer. Since they never were part of AOL's newsgroup or anything like that, I've avoided using his answers except to back up another statement about playing characters of different ethnicity. (I'd love to use the entire thing and talk about how he got a position with the show, but again, not pushing my luck.)
 * #81: Same story, but for Quinton Flynn. These are old questions from 2000, but self-published. I used it for a fact about how he landed the role.
 * #90: This is a link to the digital style guide. It was very necessary before I found newspaper articles about the style guide, so it could go if needed. The link contains images of every portion of the guide, including its art.
 * #123: These are two corroborating anecdotal accounts of the parade in California. The parade is mentioned in reliable print sources, but not the exact nature of the float (an elephant chasing a jeep, as shown in this promotional art). Used it here to preempt any "citation neededs" about the float structure.
 * #139: These are a few Q&As with Peter Lawrence, the show's creator, that I made in August 2007. This is honestly a holy grail coup for fans, and contains tons of valuable information about the show's early development...all of which I've avoided adding to the article, because it's ultimately original research. Lawrence is a busy man and hasn't been able to correspond since then, though he provided Takashi's contacts for me too (Takashi's also been busy, but I haven't recently tried to contact either of them for more information). Anyway, I just use it to defend the Race cowboy accent criticisms under critical reception, since that's an iconic controversy to fans of the show. It's heartbreaking not to add his other information, but ah well.


 * As an aside, I hope any reviewers might sympathize with the external link to QuestFan, since it contains extra, MediaWiki-maintained information such as these original Q&As that add a wealth of perspective to the show's development. Perhaps readers will enjoy the extra information there. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  07:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I asked WP:VG, and it seems that the convention now is to cite the original Japanese interview in those cases, but with a link to the fan site translation page embedded in the reference. This might reinforce some of my usage of QuestFan here. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  02:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with QuestFan.com acting as a hosting service for the sake of convenience, but such cases I don't think QuestFan should be listed as the publisher (eg. QuestFan isn't the publisher of the writer's bible are they?). --maclean 02:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  03:52, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * For some of those references, this template may help: Template:Cite usenet (instead of Cite web). maclean 04:26, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tested it out with one reference and it worked fine, but there's only one hitch: AOL's "newsgroup" was more like a proprietary newsgroup operated in the show's space (which you'd find using keywords, etc.) and so I'm not sure what to put for the "| newsgroup =" designation. (Anything in that field is automatically Wikilinked, so I can't just put "AOL", and neither do I really have a URL for that newsgroup space, since it was totally proprietary...I'm trying to think back, and I can't even remember if stuff located through AOL's keywords, etc. even had viewable URLs). Should I leave it blank, or stick "on AOL" after the author field or somewhere else in the text? ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  04:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I see. Maybe that wasn't such a good suggestion. maclean 05:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess the biggest question is regarding the reliability of the newsgroup posts and the commentary provided through Questfan.com. As far as I'm aware, the usenet posts are susceptible to error (impersonation - how to verify x actually wrote that, lack of fact-checking, etc.). If Lance Falk is available, would a Open-source Ticket Request regarding the veracity of the posts be sufficient to make such usenet posts reliable? (or am I way out of my league?) maclean 02:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://questfan.com/Page/Main_Page.html
 * http://www.incentivecentral.org/consumers/casestudies/Jonny_Quest_Ratings_Soar_with_RealLife_Adventure_Contest.844.html
 * http://www.mindspring.com/~questworld-online/unreleased.html
 * Two deadlinks in the link checker tool that need to be fixed.
 * Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper
 * Current ref 6 (the AOL thing). If it was sent through AOL's newsgroup's, it's not AOL that published the information, which is what the implication of how you've got it referenced it was. It's really self-published.
 * http://kishikat.com/zone/lanceint.html is a reprint of a magazine article. First, do they have premission to reprint the copyrighted article?
 * Likewise... http://www.toonamiarsenal.com/download/jquest.php do they have permission to host the videos? And the way you've got it referenced, it implies that Toonami Digital arsenal is the publisher of the videos, i.e. they created them, is that the case?
 * Current ref 35 (Winnie Lim's ...) is lackign a publisher
 * Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper
 * Current ref 70 (Vehicles) is lacking a publisher
 * Likewise current ref 87 (Johnny Quest digital style guide..)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. As far as the suggestion above about OTRS validating the information, I'm not convinced that's a good solution. As a general rule, self-published information isn't a great idea, and we should ideally be looking for other sources of the information, that's verifiable. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:45, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Arbitrary Section Break

Sorry, things have gotten a little busy again. I'm going to re-list the outstanding comments here under one list to help me focus. I'll then try to address the criticisms and re-list the remaining questionable references for further review.

maclean


 * ► Reduce use of newsgroup and other third-party references.
 * Addressed under next section break.

Ealdgyth


 * ✔ Check with deadlink checker. One link fixed, one unnecessary magazine search link removed.
 * ► Review http://questfan.com/Page/Main_Page.html, http://www.incentivecentral.org/consumers/casestudies/Jonny_Quest_Ratings_Soar_with_RealLife_Adventure_Contest.844.html, and http://www.mindspring.com/~questworld-online/unreleased.html.
 * 1) For QuestFan, I'd rather deal with specific citations than debate the general use, since I feel it can have value as a mirror for certain important information (this has passed in a few of my other FAs, and my usage still has provisional support at WP:VG. 2) Incentive Central seems to be a legitimate non-profit organization, even if self-published. I've tried to find something in the Wiki rules about using corporate press releases or financial statements that would get close to this, but I've come up empty-handed. Anyone have a test or something I can run this through? 3) This website has pictures of the Galoob toy catalogue from 1996 showing the unproduced figures. I wasn't sure how to cite a catalogue, and I ventured that perhaps the images might speak for themselves. I can easily replace it with a catalogue cite (since the images aren't that hard to find independently and aren't even really emphasized in the article), but I'll need a proper cite template. Would cite journal cover this?
 * The QuestFan site gives me several concerns. One is reprinting copyrighted material. (Everything in the US is copyrighted at creation, so to reprint anything past 1976 that isn't US government, you need permission). Also, not to be insulting, but the whole site is a fan site and that is another concern. Third, it publishes information from newsgroups, etc. that are a concern. I realise that the site has a lot of information that probably isn't available elsewhere, but I do not think it can pass WP:RS, quite honestly. It's going to be an issue, especially given it's heavy use in this article. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll tackle maclean's ideas on my talk page first, then return to this. A lot of the assertions it's used to cite probably don't need citations anyhow. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  05:51, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The catalog, try cite journal, that'd probably be closest. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Continued under next section break.
 * ✔ Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper.
 * ✔ Current ref 70 (Vehicles) is lacking a publisher Removed unnecessary vehicles reference.
 * ✔ Likewise current ref 87 (Johnny Quest digital style guide..)
 * ✔ http://kishikat.com/zone/lanceint.html is a reprint of a magazine article. First, do they have premission to reprint the copyrighted article?
 * To confirm the magazine is real: #2 Cover. Should we just drop the URL to avoid linking to copyright violation?
 * Yes, that would be good, if you can't confirm that they have the right to reprint. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ✔ Likewise... http://www.toonamiarsenal.com/download/jquest.php do they have permission to host the videos? And the way you've got it referenced, it implies that Toonami Digital arsenal is the publisher of the videos, i.e. they created them, is that the case? Removed the reference, since the statement (TRAJQ aired on Toonami) doesn't need a citation anyway.
 * ✔ Current ref 35 (Winnie Lim's ...) is lackign a publisher

Okay, it'll be easier for me to mentally track now. I'll get started on these. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  20:25, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Another break for references

Here are the remaining QuestFan references:


 * 4 - Writer's bible. If the website's the only issue, it could be removed from the citation, with the publisher being Hanna-Barbera. If the authenticity in question, Lance Falk can vouch, and I even sent the link to Peter Lawrence, who hadn't kept the original draft after leaving Turner. It was "leaked" in the form of photocopies on Ebay, and sometimes still pops up as an auction. A lot of quotes and the creative sections hinge on it, so I'll take pains to prove its authenticity if needed.
 * Winnie Lim's FAQ - I've removed it from the article, but I've left the statement it affirmed; "Time Warner's acquisition of Turner negated the separate series idea, leading to the episodes' release as the second season of Real Adventures." This was verified by Larry Houston in that FAQ and Lance Falk in his own writings, and the revised writer's bible is entitled The New Jonny Quest, so I'm hoping we can get away without a fact tag for this statement.
 * 38 - Francois Lord's comments on QuestWorld, mostly covering the process at Buzz F/X. These offer an interesting look into the history of the project and why QuestWorld was panned (and also why Buzz F/X went into bankruptcy), but if they absolutely had to go, the article could still stand without his notes. He is able to be reached through his personal website and Gmail in case it's relevant. Sadly, it probably would fail the self-publishing self test since he's making claims about third parties (Buzz F/X).
 * 71 - Lance Falk's Semi-FAQ. I was able to cut it down to two uses: "Falk defended his portrayal as giving her realistic, human fears, such as claustrophobia." "Falk felt that virtual reality paradoxically undermined the show's "strong connection to reality", and suggested that after so many dangerous incidents Dr. Quest would have simply turned the system off." This is self-published material on the self, and so it may pass the five stipulations at WP:V.
 * 128 - Peter Lawrence e-mail defending Race Bannon's accent. Based on WP:V, this may pass the five self-published stipulations, assuming #2 doesn't cover fictional characters and that the authenticity is not in doubt. If you whois PL's old site http://gealepeterlawrence.com/ at Godaddy, you can find his e-mail, which is how I did it when I originally contacted him about the show in 2007. I can also provide an image of the e-mail and its header information; they're still in my e-mail's inbox. This cite also now doubles as helping to prove that there was fan criticism over the accents; that assertion's cite was lost with Lance Falk's semi-FAQ.

Notifying maclean25 and Ealdgyth now. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  04:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I am supporting this article as an FA because it is exhaustively researched that certainly neglects no major facts (it goes much further than FAs on similar topics). Except File:Trajq-jessiebentondarkestfathoms.png (why is this required?) the images are excellent uses of Fair Use to illustrate different aspects (e.g. QuestWorld graphics, graphic effects, character changes between seasons). Regarding the remaining QuestFan references, 1. I'm ok with the Writer's bible though I'd prefer listing H-B as the publisher and using the QuestFan link as a convenience link. 2. I'd prefer losing Francois Lord's & Lance Falk's commentary from this article (The Lance Falk pieces are nice little extras, but are unnecessary for the scope of this article; The Francois Lord comments do add more but the article can stand without them). 3. On the Peter Lawrence interview, I'm unsure...though the QuestFan page doesn't do much to verify it is an interview between Lawrence and yourself(?), if it is a real interview, then I don't see how it is any less reliable than a professional TV/radio interview with Lawrence. But, of course, I defer to Ealdgyth's experience with references. --maclean 02:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, standing by for further revision. Thanks. This is finally my first FAC without a copyedit shakedown or objection; viewing in print mode and copyediting from the bottom to the top really is a fantastic technique. ZeaLitY [  DREAM  -  REFLECT  ]  03:29, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.