Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Shadow (magazine)/archive1

The Shadow (magazine)

 * Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

This article is about the pulp magazine associated with the phrase "The Shadow knows". The Shadow was invented to read a line on a radio show, and ended up as a franchise. A note to potential reviewers: the scope of the article is the magazine itself, not the character or the other media in the franchise, so there's nothing about cultural interpretations of The Shadow -- that discussion is in the article The Shadow, which is about the character himself. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

 * The first paragraph could make it clearer what the relationship is between the novels and the magazine. Also could be clearer in the body. One things of a novel as longer than a magazine. While I see that the format is made clear later in the article, it might be better to be clear up front.
 * I've added a couple of sentences that I think address what you're asking for -- I assume the problem was that the structure of a single-character pulp was a lead novel about that character in every issue? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of "Bibliographic Details" seems a bit repetitive of what has come before.
 * I've cut mention of Moran and De Grouchy, who are not important to the history, from the publication details section; does that do it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Can I ask the logic behind the article title? If it bore the title The Shadow Magazine through its glory days, might not that be better?
 * It could reasonably be at either location, I think. The sources index it both ways.  I picked The Shadow because the source I started with, Tymn & Ashley, has it that way, and that's one of the best sources -- Cook has it the other way but I've found more errors in Cook than in Tymn and Ashley.  Hulse and Gibson both have The Shadow, so that seems enough of a majority vote to keep it that way.  I did just change the redirect from The Shadow Magazine to point to the magazine article; I hadn't realized it was going to the character article, The Shadow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , just checking you haven't forgotten this.... Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:50, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Sorry, had forgotten I needed to look in again. All looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:40, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Support from Aoba47

 * I believe a link to the digest size article would be beneficial in both the lead and the article as some readers may be unfamiliar with this terminology.
 * Good idea; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The character, The Shadow, is linked in the lead, but not in the article itself. The same goes for pulp magazine. I would think both should be linked in the article.
 * I can never decide whether to relink in the body, and this time I went with not relinking, but I think you're right for both these. Done, but the first opportunity to link the character is quite a long way into the article, since the character himself is not really discussed till the contents section.  Do you think it needs to be further up? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It looks good to me. Thank you for addressing this! Aoba47 (talk) 19:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)


 * This may be nothing, but I find the first paragraph of the "Publication history" section to be rather long, especially with how the text is formatted around the image. Do you think it would be possible to break this up into two paragraphs to avoid having a rather imposing wall of text right away?
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This is likely either a browser or an internet connection issue on my end, but for some reason, I can click on the File:The Shadow April 1931.jpg image to pull up more information about it. Is that happening on your end as well?
 * Yes; I hadn't noticed it, but that appears to be a side effect of the multiple image template which I used to have the two adjacent images. I could probably get around this if necessary by constructing a single image of the two covers in an image editor and then posting that using a normal image link.  I'm not sure if that's a good idea, though, since one is fair use (probably -- since it's mostly a copy it might not meet the requirements for originality in which case it would be public domain like the 1919 image). Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that putting the two images together is not a good idea per the reasons you have already stated. Readers can still access the image in a different way so in my opinion, it is not a serious issue. I was more so curious if it was something in my browser or with my internet. It seem to be an issue with the template and that should not be a problem for this FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 19:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I have only done a brief read-through of the article so far. I am only vaguely familiar with The Shadow, but I look forward to doing a much deeper dive into the article. I have made some edits (as shown here), but they are to remove some additional spaces between sentences and add some commas. Feel free to revert anything. I hope my comments for now are helpful. Have a great week! Aoba47 (talk) 03:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC) I have made one minor edit (here) to move up the Doc Savage wikilink to the first instance that it is mentioned in the article as it was linked on the second mention. I have read through the article a few more times, and I do not have anything else to add. You have done great work with this article as always, and I support the FAC for promotion based on the prose. If possible, I would appreciate any feedback on my current FAC, although I completely understand if you do not have the time or interest. I hope you are doing well! Aoba47 (talk) 21:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Apologies about removing the double spacing. I was not aware that it was intentional and preferred by some editors. I have only noticed this point after seeing your message on the User talk:89.164.202.153 talk page so feel free to revert my edits. Aoba47 (talk) 03:24, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * As I posted on your talk page before I saw you'd commented here, I think this all depends on who taught you typing, though I think the two spaces after a period thing is now mostly older editors. Like me, for example.  I'm too old to change that habit, so thank you for the revert. And thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:55, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I left a comment to your post on the talk page. I do not think there is anything wrong with two spaces, and it is nice to see stylistic differences on Wikipedia. I will read through the article again later in the week. I do not imagine that I will have that much to add, but I want to make sure I do a good job in reading and reviewing the article thoroughly. Aoba47 (talk) 19:37, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * FYI, it does not matter for the reader if you use 1, 2, 3, or as many spaces as you want:                                                             the software will display as one space regardless. (There are 62 spaces after the semicolon). (t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support! I had a read through "Laundromat", and it looks fine; I left a couple of minor notes at the FAC. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:19, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support by Gerald Waldo Luis
Looks like a comprehensive piece at quick scroll. I especially like the issue data table; I usually hate numbers but this is beautiful.  Gerald WL  16:43, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Mostly done; see above for a couple of comments/questions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:30, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry for some of the comments based on misunderstanding/misreads, I think you've responded to my comments well. Support -- great work!  Gerald WL  11:11, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support. And I meant to say thanks for the compliment re the issue grid; I use them in lots of magazine articles and I'm glad to hear they're doing the job they're designed for. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I do love them! I shared it to some of my acquaintances and we all have the same thoughts. I'm currently making a Signpost article about "Wikipedia as art", and I'm planning to cite this article as an example.  Gerald WL  11:46, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support by Pendright
Back soon! Pendright (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead:
 * A line from the introduction, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows", prompted listeners to ask at newsstands for "The Shadow magazine", and convinced the publisher that a magazine based around a single character could be successful.
 * who or what convinced the publisher?
 * Changed to "which convinced": it was the fact that listeners were asking for "The Shadow magazine" that convinced them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Sales were strong, and Street & Smith quickly moved it from quarterly to monthly, and then to twice-monthly.
 * Replacing "it" with purblicaion might improve readability?
 * This was originally "from quarterly to monthly, and then to twice-monthly publication"; I removed "publication" per another reviewer's comment above. I don't mind re-adding it at either place in the sentence but I would prefer to get agreement before doing so. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <>The word publication is definitive and reader freiedly - thus more apt than it in ths situastion. Pendright (talk) 21:59, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Publication histry:
 * n 1930, CBS began The Detective Story Hour (actually a half-hour), a radio program that used scripts based on stories from the magazine.
 * CBS -> Isn't first mention usually spedlled out
 * Yes, generally, but here I think far fewer people would recognize "Columbia Broadcasting System" than "CBS". Looking at the article on CBS I see it's no longer an abbreviation, in fact -- apparently that ceased to be true in 1974. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <>FYI: According to Google, CBS changed its name again in 1997 to the CBS Corporation. I would urge you to follow the generally accepted paractice of first mention as best you can. Pendright (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)


 * This had been done in the days of the dime novels, with characters such as Nick Carter and Frank Merriwell, but had never been tried with pulp magazines.
 * Link dime novels
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * He asked Frank Blackwell, the editor of Detective Story Magazine, to launch The Shadow, and provided him with an old manuscript for a Nick Carter novel that had never been published.[7][8]
 * for a Nick Carter novel -> "of" a Nick Carter novel
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The publication date was only two months distant, so Gibson began work that night [while] on a train to Philadelphia.[2]
 * Consider the above addition
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Pulp historians Will Murray and Robert Weinberg suggest that Street & Smith's expectations for the magazine must have been low, because they re-used old cover art, rather than commissioning something new.[2]
 * re-used -> reused
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The cover showed a Chinese man, with his dark shadow on a wall behind him; according to pulp historian Ron Goulart it was the only cover art the Street & Smith staff had been able to find with a shadow, but in fact the original artwork had a dark background, rather than a clearly outlined shadow.[2][9]
 * Rather a long sentence?
 * I think it's OK -- it's a long but connected thought. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Change "Chinese man" to a man of chinese descent
 * I'd rather not -- I'm already at the limit of interpretation just by referring to him as Chinese, though I know from the sources that that's what's intended. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "on "a" wall behind him" -> on "the" wall behind him
 * I made this just "visible behind him" -- there's no indication of what the shadow is actually on, so this is probably safer. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Circulation rose quickly, reaching 300,000, a figure achieved by very few pulps.[13]
 * "The" circulation
 * This wouldn't be wrong, but it's not idiomatic -- the sources more often omit the article than use it. I'd like to leave this as it is if you're OK with it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * <>Although the writer must be true to the facts in the sources, it is he or she who chooses the pros and the grammar that will be used in the article. You call it! Pendright (talk) 22:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)


 * In 1935 Ralston and Nanovic began to vary the style of the novels, asking Gibson to write action-oriented rather than plot-centric fiction, and at the same time decided to bring in another author to write some of the novels and reduce Gibson's workload.[6]
 * who decided?
 * Ralston and Nanovic -- is this not clear from the structure of the sentence? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The new author was Theodore Tinsley, whose first contribution appeared in the November 1, 1936 issue, titled Partners of Peril.[14][6] Tinsley wrote nearly thirty of the lead novels over the next seven years.[6]
 * In the format used, isn't a comma required after the year?
 * I'm not certain but I don't think so. For a monthly magazine I would usually say "...in the November 1936 issue, titled..." with no comma there; the date is an attributive phrase.  Here the date happens to have a comma in the middle but that doesn't change the fact that it's an attributive phrase, so I think the comma is not needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * In 1943 paper shortages forced Street & Smith to reduce The Shadow from pulp format to digest size.[6]
 * Tell readers why there was a paper shortage - you did in the lead
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Nanovic left at the end of the year, and his place was taken in June 1944 by Babette Rosmond .[12]
 * and his place was taken by Babette Rosmond in June 1944
 * seems to be an extra space at full stop.
 * Both done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Gibson finally returned in the August–September 1948 issue, with the dispute resolved.[6][1]
 * returned "for" the August–September 1948 issue,
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Contents and reception:
 * The Shadow had a group of regular associates who featured in many of the novels: Harry Vincent, a young man who acted as The Shadow's aide; Rutledge Mann, an investment broker; Cliff Marsland, a wrongly-imprisoned innocent man; Clyde Burke, a reporter; and Joe Cardona, a police detective.[6][9]
 * Could add "were" between who and featured
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Tinsley's work included more violence and more sexually oriented material than Gibson's, though Murray comments that Tinsley's first Shadow novels were essentially imitations of Gibson's style.
 * Could drop the second "more"
 * I think it's OK as a parallel structure to indicate that both are equally true. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * There were also non-fiction departments such as a regular letter column and a club column.[2]
 * nonfiction is not a hyphenated word
 * It is in the UK! You can blame my schooling; fixed for this AmEng article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The first four covers for The Shadow (not including the re-used art by Modest Stein pressed into service for the first issue) were painted by Jerome Rozen;[18] with the January 1932 issue, Jerome's brother, George Rozen, took over, and became the magazine's best-known cover artist.[19]
 * reused is not a hyphenated word
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Drop the comma after over
 * I'd like to keep this one; I think the first clause is complicated enough that a pause between the two is helpful to the reader. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Street & Smith's associate art editor, Bill Lawlor, is reputed to be the model for depictions of The Shadow:
 * Lawlor is supposed to have kept a suitable cape and hat in his office.
 * Why is and not was?
 * Historic present; this is supposed in the sources, rather than (or perhaps as well as) supposed at the time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Interior art was often by Tom Lovell in the early years; he was followed by Edd Cartier and Earl Mayan, and then, during the war, by Paul Orban. Cartier returned as an illustrator after the war, as did Orban for the final few issues.[9]
 * Start the sentence with the definite article
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The word "done" would fit between often & by
 * I don't think this is necessary -- I think art is often attributed to an artist without an explicit verb in this way. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Drop the comma after then.
 * Done, but I had to also drop the next comma as they're a pair. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Bibliographic details:
 * The editor was initially Frank Blackwell, with the assistance of Lon Murray; John Nanovic took over with the April 1932 issue and stayed as editor until November 1943.
 * and stayed as "the" editor
 * I went ahead and cut the word "editor" completely -- it's there at the beginning of the sentence so I think the reader is not going to be confused. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * It was pulp format for all issues except December 1943 to September 1948, which were digest-sized.
 * It was 'the" pulp format
 * It's more common to see it in the sources without the definite article, though you do see both; I'd like to leave this as is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The price began at 10 cents, switched to 15 cents in April 1943, and went to 25 cents with the February/March 1947 issue.
 * Drop the comma after after 1943
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The volume numbering was entirely regular, with six issues per volume; the last issue was volume 55 number 1.[2]
 * Could use a comma after 55
 * Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The first two issues were dated April 1931 and July–September 1931; it was then [issued]
 * monthly from October 1931 to September 1932, and [it] appeared on the 1st and 15th of each month from October 1932 until the [issue of] March 1, 1943[,] issue, which was followed by [the] April 1943, inaugurating [the] a monthly sequence that ran until January 1947.
 * Consider this or something like it


 * [Begining] W [w]ith the [issue of] August 15, 1937[,] issue this was simplified to just The Shadow.
 * I added "Beginning" at the start of the sentence; I agree that's helpful. The attributive use of the date for the magazine issue is pretty standard and I'd like to keep that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The character has also appeared in comics, and in [the] a 1994 film, The Shadow, with Alec Baldwin in the title role.[26]
 * Consider these changes
 * Changed to "the", but I think we need the second comma -- it's a parenthetical pair. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Finished - Pendright (talk) 02:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! I've either made the changes you suggested or have commented above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 03:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Supporting! I left a few comments in response to yours - none are contingent on my support. Pendright (talk) 00:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I've re-added "publication", but for the moment I'm going to let the other two lie. Thanks for the support! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:49, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, good luck the rest of the way. Pendright (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Source review
Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed.
 * " Fans of The Shadow generally consider the quality of the fiction to have dropped after the 1930s". I see claims like this attributed to critics/historians; am I missing one attributed to fans?
 * I've changed this in the lead to "Pulp historians consider...". Hulse says fans regard the mid-1930s as the high point, and that fans dislike the Elliott novels, but after looking at the sources again I think the summary opinion is better attributed to the historians. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 10:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * What makes Field Guide to Wild American Pulp Artists a high-quality reliable source?
 * It's the work of David Saunders, who is the author of books on pulp art -- see this list. The website is by him alone. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * FN24: are there pages missing here?
 * No, it shouldn't be "pp"; fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is Liverpool University Press linked for the second Ashley but not the first?
 * Now both linked. I don't usually link publishers; I think I copied this citation from another article where another editor had added the publisher link.  I can link all the publisher for which articles exist, if that sort of consistency is desirable.
 * Be consistent in whether locations are included for books. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:39, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the only one omitted is Murania Press, for which I can find no location clues, either online or in the book itself. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Seems to be Morris Plains. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:55, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks; added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:05, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, ; replies above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:24, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Image review by Aoba47 (pass)

 * File:Shadow Death From Nowhere.jpg: The WP:FUR is clear and concise with explaining the purpose of the image's inclusion in the article. I do have a question about the Image:Shadow178deathfromnowhere.jpg link in the "Summary" section. Apologies if this is obvious as I am not super experienced with images or image reviews, but what is the purpose of the red link? Other than that, the ALT text looks good to me.
 * There doesn't seem to be the file you're mentioning, and there's no "Summary" section.
 * The red link is in this part. It is in the section between the image and the WP:FUR box. Aoba47 (talk) 01:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah! I changed the source to similar to the below navbox.
 * Thank you for addressing this. Aoba47 (talk) 02:24, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Both File:The Thrill Book 1 October 1919.jpg and File:The_Shadow_April_1931.jpg have clear ALT text. The information on Wikimedia Commons looks solid for the first image, and the second one has a clear WP:FUR. The purpose for both images is clear in the article. I already raised this in my prose review, but the second image is not clickable and on second thought, I think this is worthy of further investigation and revision. I have done two side-by-side images for the article on The Emperor's New School and both are clickable so it is possible. I am only suggesting this from an accessibility standpoint as it was somewhat of a pain to access the second image, and I would imagine it would be more of a pain for readers who are not Wikipedia editors and not as familiar with the site.
 * , I FIXED IT! :D Turns out it was just caused by a redundant underscore in the image2 parameter.
 * Awesome! Thank you for fixing. It is nice to learn what was causing the issue and hopefully this will help other people who have a similar problem :) Aoba47 (talk) 01:56, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem, and yeah I knew there was a rendering problem lmao, hope others would benefit from this (Diff).

I hope this image review is helpful. I just one question about a link in one of the images and a suggestion for improving the side-by-side image layout. Once both comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to mark this image review as passed. Aoba47 (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing everything. This FAC passes my image review. I hope you are having an excellent end to your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 02:24, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Aoba47 and Gerald! Nice to show up to find someone else has not just done the review but fixed the problems!  I appreciate the review and the help; and it's nice to discover what caused that weird problem with the side-by-side images. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 02:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No worries, Mike, it's always nice for me to investigate these little problems (in a way satisfying). Hope y'all have a great day too! :)  Gerald WL  02:33, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)