Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Sun Also Rises/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 11:51, 1 June 2011.

The Sun Also Rises

 * Nominator(s): Truthkeeper88 (talk)18:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the criteria. The article has been through peer-review, and all issues have been resolved. The Sun Also Rises was Ernest Hemingway's first successful novel, and in many ways a novel that came to define a generation. No pressure or anything, but the 50th anniversary of Hemingway's death is on July 2nd, and I thought it would be nice to have this done by then. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 25: why author after title here?
 * Be consistent in small details like how "quoted in" is punctuated, whether you put edition in reference or bibliography only, how different works are separated in bundled citations, etc
 * Belassi or Balassi?
 * Why include website name for online edition of Kansas City Star but not for online edition of New York Times?
 * The info on Hemingway is actually not from a story but hosted on the Hemingway section of the Kansas City Star website. The NYT piece was a 1926 review, which unfortunately I don't seem to be able to accesss anymore, but in my view there's a difference. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pages for Baym?
 * Ref 93: are you sure that's the right date?
 * Be consistent in whether there is punctuation between the author and the date in sources, or between journal and volume
 * Be consistent in how editors are notated, particularly for chapters/essays within a larger work
 * Be consistent in whether or not you include publisher locations, and if so how they are notated
 * I think the only source at issue here is The Sun Also Rises itself. I'd prefer in the sources to make clear the 2006 edition is being used for the purposes of page numbers that differ across editions.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ISBN for Balassi?
 * Why the extra date in Kinnamon, Wagner-Martin 1990 and Stoltzfus? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikkimaria. Working on these .... Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * These are done; a few explanatory comments above. Thanks again. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:21, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Images
 * File:Hemingwaysun1.jpg is tagged as needing reduction, source link is broken
 * Looks like someone has done this, see here. Working on the links next. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ernest_Hadley_and_Bumby_Hemingway.jpg: source link is broken
 * File:GertrudeStein_JackHemingway_Paris.jpg: permission link is broken. Also, neither the image description page nor the source link provide author name or date, so I don't think PD-old is the correct tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:02, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikkimaria. The JFK Library changed their website and all the old links are dead. Will get to these issues as soon as I finish dealing with this issue. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the images - they were donated to the JFK Library by the Hemingway estate and the ones available to the public on the library website have been released to the public domain. I've updated with the new source links. File:GertrudeStein_JackHemingway_Paris.jpg on .en and on Commons is correctly licensed as PD-US. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

TGilmour (talk) 13:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * World War I (in the lead) should be linked.
 * Lost Generation should have quotation marks.
 * I do think World War I is relevant to the article so I've linked it; normally I wouldn't per WP:Overlink. I've added the quotation marks to be consistent with Ernest Hemingway. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

"'But her Jew has gone away .... Damned good thing, what?'" – excessive spaces and one full stop (there should be three) TGilmour (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2011 (UTC) Citation style. For example, Meyers (1985), 98–99 Here, I think "p." must be written after (1985),. TGilmour (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Regarding the ellipsis - the nonbreaking spaces are added to prevent the ellipsis from formatting on a new line. That particular quote has four dots because I skipped a sentence and that's conventionally how it's done. Regarding citation style, we don't have a house style and it doesn't really matter how it's done as long as it's done consistently - see Nikkimaria's comments above. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:01, 27 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Support TGilmour (talk) 09:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment "The Sun Also Rises is a 1926 novel written by Ernest Hemingway about..." – shouldn't you indicate that Hemingway was an American author, like in Uncle Tom's Cabin, which is already a FA? TGilmour (talk) 09:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I should. I'll fix it. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Support, with some minor comments: Ucucha 09:41, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Balassi writes that Jake gets drunk to avoid his feelings for Brett, notably in the Madrid scenes at the end where he has three martinis before lunch and drinks four bottles of wine at lunch."—has an inline comment stating that this needs to be verified in the text; have you done this?
 * "depict Cohn as a shemiel (or fool)"—is this not shlemiel?
 * "Josephs, Allen (1987). "Toreo: The Moral Axis of The Sun Also Rises". in Bloom, Harold (ed). Modern Critical Interpretations: Ernest Hemingway's "The Sun Also Rises".  New York: Chelsea House. ISBN 1-55546-053-4"—should "Toreo" be "Torero"?
 * "Svoboda, Frederic (1983). Hemingway & The Sun Also Rises: The crafting of a Style. Lawrence: Kansas UP. ISBN 0-70-060228-3"—check capitalization
 * "Bloom says that some of the characters do not stand the test of time, writing that modern readers are uncomfortable with the antisemitic treatment of Cohn's character, the adulation given to a bullfighter, and that Brett and Mike belong firmly in the jazz age rather than in the modern era. However, he believes that the novel does stand the test of time on the strength of Hemingway's prose and style."—the repetition of "stand the test of time" is jarring
 * Thanks for reminding me of the in-line comment. Three martinis and three bottles of wine. Maybe they were small bottles? Anyway, fixed.
 * I've taken care of the typos/spelling errors and reworded the Bloom bit in the legacy. Thanks for reading and for the support! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment I am a little uncomfortable with the opening sentence - The Sun Also Rises is a 1926 novel written by Ernest Hemingway on the experiences of the "Lost Generation" that came of age during World War I. Is the novel really on the experiences of the lost generation? Or does the book include a cast of characters that were described as being part of a 'lost generation' and is about their experiences and events in Europe after the war?...Modernist (talk) 14:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't get that sentence right, but I agree with you. Will try to pull an earlier version out of history or rewrite altogether. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:12, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * re: much improved opening sentence...Modernist (talk) 12:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've worked on this. See what you think. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Support I did a read through and I made a minor change to the Cezanne caption. Well done...Modernist (talk) 04:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment There doesn't seem to be a mention of androgyny, particularly Brett's androgynous appearance and its significance. source 1, source 2, this book, and this book p94. You've done an excellent job on the article otherwise truthkeeper...and I like your new signature=P.Smallman12q (talk) 23:02, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for the comment. The article does devote a paragraph to Brett in the "Masculinity and gender" section, based on scholarly sources. Unfortunately Mark Spilka's book that you linked isn't available via preview, (but I think he's used as a source), and the other one isn't either. The pdf is a thesis; I think it's better to use the published papers that are available on the subject. I'll reread what I have to see if it needs to be given more weight, and am happy to know what others feel about this. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Support by Ruhrfisch. I was involved in the peer review for the article and my concerns were addressed there. On rereading it now, I find the article has been improved further and am glad to support. I have a few quibbles that do not detract from my support.
 * Can the caption Ernest Hemingway (on the left) with Lady Duff Twysden, Hadley, Harold Loeb, Don Stewart and Pat Guthrie at a café in Pamplona, Spain, July 1925. be rewritten so that it is clearer who is who in the actual picture (I can pick out Hemingway, Hadley and Lady Duff, but am not sure of the others).
 * Apparently the description was changed when the JFK Library modified their website and links, so I've changed accordingly. I will plow through the biographies to see whether any of the biographers have identified the men and if so, change back and cite to the relevant biography. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * In Publication history need to say that the English title was Fiesta (in the lead, but not in this paragraph). Two related items follow.
 * Fixed Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I suggested this in the peer review and still feel it would be clearer - in the lead I would write it something like The novel was published by Scribner's in the US in October 1926, and by Jonathan Cape as Fiesta in the UK in 1927. Each time I read the current version ("... as Fiesta by Jonathan Cape in the UK ...) I think Jonathan Cape is a psuedonym for Hemingway (i.e. they changed the title, why not the author's name?). Also, since Fiesta is an alternative title, shouldn't it be bold in the lead?
 * Sorry, completely forgot. Fixed now and bolded the title. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I s the novel still published under the title Fiesta in the UK or other countries?
 * That's a very good question. My paperback version is actually titled Fiesta but it was published in the 1980s. According to the Jonathan Cape/Random House website the book is currently titled Fiesta: The Sun Also Rises, so I've added that and used the publisher as a source. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Aficion is introduced in the section before it is explained
 * Removed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Hope this helps - thanks for a very nicely done article, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for noticing these good points, the excellent peer review, and the support. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:15, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You are very welcome - thanks again for an interesting read, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.