Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Tale of Mr. Jeremy Fisher/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:38, 16 November 2010.

The Tale of Mr. Jeremy Fisher

 * Nominator(s): Susanne2009NYC (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

This article has had some considerable work in the past few days and is ready for FA in my opinion. Please enjoy the read and I welcome your feedback! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Initial comment — Great article. How about using this file File:Beatrix Potter Jeremy Fisher Cover.jpg as the cover image instead? P. S. Burton  (talk)  22:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.The new pic is crisp, vibrant, and cleaner. Thank you! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment 2c: citation presentation Fifelfoo (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Check typos: Linder, Leslie (1971), A Hostory…
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 05:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Type of media, broadcast date, producer?, channel: The World of Peter Rabbit and Friends, BBC, 1993
 * This : "Copying Caldecott, Victoria and Albert Museum, http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/prints_books/features/potter/illustrating/caldecott/index.html, retrieved 3 November 2010" Actually appears to be "Copying Caldecott" Guide to and commentary on The Beatrix Potter Collection (Prints and Books collection) at the Victoria and Albert Museum"
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 05:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Jeremie Peche-a-la-Ligne" Amazon isn't highly reliable here. Try a bibliographic database.  The national deposit library of France or Canada, or the provincial deposit library of Quebec?
 * Done. BYU. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 05:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 01:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Image comments (maybe more if I have time, I've still got the battered copy of this I read as a kid and I'm tripping on nostalgia.)
 * The images all look good, but for the illustrations from the books, you really should explain why they specifically are PD in the US but not in the home country (shouldn't take too long, since you can copy-paste it to the other pages and it's a pretty simple explanation.) The other images are all from the same site and suitably abide by CC-by-SA.
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * On their use in the article: first, the illustration captions really should be quoted so readers know exactly where they are from. Secondly, the images are all awesome, but they start cluttering up the text by the sheer weight of them (i.e., being placed where they have no real relevance to supporting the text.) Perhaps the best idea is the use one image where the illustration is specifically discussed, and then have a gallery at the end embedded?


 * Support This is as good an article on this subject as one could wish. Delectable, in fact. It certainly meets FA criteria 1, 2 and 4, IMO. I leave the images to the criterion 3 specialists, and assuming they have no problems I shall be pleased to see this article on our front page. Tim riley (talk) 21:08, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments There are a few instances of what look like typos:
 * "again, an hops"
 * "her journal enteries for"
 * "to the Jermey Fisher"
 * "Sir Isacc Newton"
 * "Jeremy ,ade a cameo"
 * "sought licencing rights" [participle = licensing]
 * "Isaac Newton was releasd for"
 * "granted licencing"

Tim riley (talk) 14:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Done. Thank you! And sorry there were so many! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:22, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

A couple of drive-by comments.
 * First, while the pictures are good (PD in the US or CC from good old Geograph) the sound file sadly is not- it is a reproduction of something that is PD in the US, but not in the UK (the book's source country) and so should not be hosted on Commons. It can be hosted on the English Wikipedia, as it is PD in the US, but should be deleted from Commons. Perhaps you could upload it locally, and then the Commons version can be nominated for deletion? (I do, however, think the use of an audiobook like that is wonderful).


 * Done. Uploaded locally and hope the explantions are correct. I have no experience uploading sound clips and hope I've done the right thing here. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 11:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks, I have made a couple of small fixes to the local file page, and nominated the file for deletion at Commons (see here). J Milburn (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Perth (in an image caption) is a dablink. omnibus and audio CD (Reprints and translations) are also dablinks.


 * Done. Corrected. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 11:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't have time for a full review right now, but I would certainly like to give it a full review at some point. At first glance, this is an absolutely wonderful article on a lovely subject. J Milburn (talk) 12:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Support and comments A great article, just a couple of nit-picks.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You should avoid using templates (like the green tick) on this page, as it can slow loading
 * Macintosh &mdash; should be capitalised, follow the link (two occurrences)
 * stickleback might be a better link than the one to the family
 * males-only &mdash; reads oddly to me, I'd be inclined to put "male-only"
 * Done. I followed Potter's spelling in the text on Macintosh (with lower case m) but have changed to capitalized M as should be. Thank you for the three spine stickleback -- I wasn't aware! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 11:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I have time for a more thorough read now.
 * "A "great big enormous trout" rises from the water and — "ker-pflop-p-p-p!" — seizes Jeremy with a snap. "Ow! Ow! Ow!"" I don't have any great opposition, but some may consider it unencyclopedic to write like this.
 * Done. This is taken from Potter's text. I include it because it is the climax of the tale and it gives the reader a sense of Potter's storytelling style.
 * A link to alderman somewhere?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "relocation to Sawrey and" Link?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Rupert Potter, and his associates at the Athenaeum and the Reform clubs" Links to any of these?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Although she regarded the lives of her father and his friends as comical and even trivial, yet to all appearances she found value in their outdoor pursuits and pleasures from the treatment they receive in Jeremy Fisher." Rephrase?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "to all appearances" repetition of the phrase
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "seemingly endless" A little too hyperbolic
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "effortless, finished quality" Not so NPOV- perhaps attribute the view to someone?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Her ability to depict human society without implying the damaging effect that society has on the natural world underscores the book's blissful creation and its success." Again?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The background section (any reason why you've chosen to put it there, by the way?) seems to include some off-topic details. Potter's mycological career, for instance, seems to have no relevance, and I can't help but think that other parts should be trimmed.
 * Done. I've cut this back a bit. I prefer the background section at the top but the Novels Project prefers the Plot at the top. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "A Frog He Would A-Wooing Go" If we don't have an article, perhaps some context?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 02:39, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "uncrowded designs and Potter's economical, eloquent line." Again, a bit POV
 * Done.
 * "on the banks of a river."[27][26]", "annual, Comical Customers at the New Stores of Comical Rhymes and Stories.[31][14]" Again, not something that really bothers me, but the footnote numbers should be in order. There may be other examples.
 * Done. I'll look for others. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Have not found others. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 02:39, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * "Moss Eccles Tarn" Link? Don't be scared of redlinks! There are plenty of reliable sources about. I'll write it myself if I find a few minutes.
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "would later keep a small" later kept?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "at 1/- and in a deluxe binding of decorated cloth at 1/6" Terms by no means familiar to everyone. Spell them out?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "an unpublished Peter Rabbit board game, and a Peter Rabbit nursery wallpaper designed between 1903 and 1905" Either of these involve Jeremy?
 * Done. No, as far as I know, because she didn't complete Jeremy until 1906. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Isaac Newton was releasd for two years" Typo?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * "Schmid & Co. of Toronto and Randolph, Massachusetts was granted licensing rights" Were?
 * Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 07:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to be a bore, but some sources for the first paragraph of the last section would be useful.
 * Done. You're not a bore! :) Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Generally absolutely wonderful- the development and publication section was a fascinating, the subject matter is lovely (and of interest to a local like me!) and the use of the sound file and pictures is great. I think the background needs a trim, a few areas need a little bit of a rewrite/NPOVing, and a couple more sources in the last section wouldn't go amiss. J Milburn (talk) 21:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. I still think the background section could do with some trimming, but I understand why you have put it there. For what it's worth, I've written a short article on Moss Eccles Tarn; hopefully it'll be hitting DYK at some point soon. J Milburn (talk) 11:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Great article on the Tarn! and Thank you for your support! I've trimmed the Background section here and there and removed mention of the relationship between Potter and Norman Warne. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:43, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Dab/EL check - No dabs, no link problems. -- Pres N  23:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Hi Susanne, nice work. I wonder if it jars a little to suddenly have a large section about Potter in the middle of the article. I think I'd either leave that out, or make it very much shorter. And I'd probably place it after plot. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 11:21, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi SlimVirgin! Thank you for the comments! The layout I've followed is that suggested/recommended by the WikiProject Novels with the Plot first, followed by a Themes section, Background, etc. I've moved things about a bit. I don't know where to shorten the Background section. I've already cut some info. Everything one needs to know that led to the composition of this book is included here.


 * I agree that the plot should come first after the lead. Personally I would leave out the section about Potter, but if you're going to have it, I would place it after plot, but wherever I placed it, I would shorten it a great deal -- down to one brief paragraph probably, summary-style. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 14:03, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to take a look at revising/trimming this section later. The Caldecott info could be moved to Development and publication. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:34, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it might be worth adding some in-text attribution where you're closely paraphrasing, e.g. "Kutzer argues that ...". For example:


 * Wikipedia, citing Kutzer, p. 121: "It is possible her relocation to Sawrey and Hill Top farm may have produced in her a willingness to accept the silliness of the middle class and the eccentricities of the upper class without being overly judgemental."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Kutzer, p. 121: "Once Potter moved to Sawrey, she seems much less judgmental in her appraisal of English social life, willing to accept the silliness of the aspiring middle class as well as the eccentricities of the upper classes."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it would make sense to add the name of the source wherever you're closing following someone's writing or arguments. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 11:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I revised the scholarly comments section to reflect this. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 14:25, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Some more in-text attribution needed, or preferably rewriting:


 * Lear, p. 47: " ...Beatrix enjoyed copying his pictures, unconsciously absorbing his light-toned palette, ecomony of line and use of white space. Much later she admitted that she had 'tried in vain' to copy Caldecott. 'I have the greatest admiration for his work – a jealous appreciation; for I think that others, whose names are commonly bracketed with his, are not on the same plane at all as artist-illustrators.'"


 * Article, citing Lear: "She copied his work, unconsciously replicating his light-toned palette, economical line, and use of white space in some of her own work. She admitted, 'I have the greatest admiration for his work – a jealous appreciation; for I think that others, whose names are commonly bracketed with his, are not on the same plane at all as artist-illustrators.'"

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Lear, p. 27: "The summer of 1871 was the beginning of a decade of summers Beatrix spent at Dalguise ... it was this landscape against which she would compare all others, and upon which she would base her aesthetic value of nature."


 * Article, citing Lear: "The Potters would summer at Dalguise for the next ten years and for Beatrix the landscape became the one upon which she would base her aesthetic value of nature."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Lear, p. 212: "Her letter to Eric provided a story line that was sure to amuse a child and give opportunity for both artistic and literary embellishment."


 * Article, citing Lear: " ... the plot was one not only certain to amuse a child, but one to provide plenty of opportunity for artistic and literary development."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 17:11, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * SlimVirgin talk| contribs 16:27, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Whew! I'm embarrassed there are so many! I've taken care of them -- adequately I hope! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:38, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for fixing them. Can I ask you to check the offline sources too? I'm not able to see everything on Amazon or Google. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm using my word processor to rewrite a bit and to trim the background section. Will bring it along soon. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not keen on how some of the sentences from The Story of Miss Moppet have been copied here. Two examples (there may be more):


 * "Potter confidently asserted her tales would one day be nursery classics, and part of the process in making them so was marketing strategy.[47] She was the first to exploit the commercial possibilities of her characters and tales with a Peter Rabbit doll, an unpublished Peter Rabbit board game, and a Peter Rabbit nursery wallpaper designed between 1903 and 1905.[48] Similar "side-shows" (as Potter termed the spinoffs) were conducted over the following two decades.[49]"


 * "Helen Beatrix Potter was born on 28 July 1866 to barrister Rupert William Potter and his wife Helen (Leech) Potter in London. She was educated by governesses and tutors, and passed a quiet childhood reading, painting, drawing, tending a nursery menagerie of small animals, and visiting museums and art exhibitions."


 * It makes things very formulaic, especially if multiple FAs and GAs are going to carry the same words. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:41, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm reworking the background section and the birthdate has been eliminated. I've created an Influences section about Caldecott and her father's sport fishing. It's based entirely on what is in the article. Just moving blocks of text sbout and maybe a bit of new info about Caldecott. It's too soon to bring this to the table -- it's yet to be completed. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 22:33, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

There have been two recommendations that the background section be trimmed. The revised background section has been installed. Much has been cut but the section retains crucial info such as why she chose a small format for her books, the Hentschel process, her familiarity with small animals, etc. These are the things readers may want to know about what led to the creation of Jeremy Fisher. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 23:29, 14 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm concerned about the amount of copying word from word (or very close to it) from the sources without in-text attribution. Another one (I see you just reworded the first one slightly):


 * Macdonald: "In Jeremy Fisher Potter celebrated and preserved the leisurely lives and characters of her aquatic acquaintances in the country she was growing to love."


 * Article, citing Macdonald: "Potter celebrated and preserved the leisurely, unhurried lives of the pond inhabitants she was beginning to know and appreciate in the environs of Sawrey."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * MacDonald, p. 98. "One cannot help but suspect that Potter modeled these gentlemanly activities after those of her father and his friends at his club. Their sole concern in life was how to occupy their leisure time, and the activities they invented to do so were pursued sometimes to the point of absurd obsession.


 * Article, citing MacDonald: "It is likely Potter modelled her characters on her father and his associates at the Athenaeum and the Reform clubs in London. The sole concern for these wealthy gentlemen was to fill their many leisure hours with interesting activities and to pursue those activities with a passion bordering on obsession."

Done. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * SlimVirgin talk| contribs 13:18, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose. I don't feel I can support this, Susanne, sorry. I've found too many examples of the source's words being used and not your own, and that's without access to most of them. If it had just been a couple, it would be fine to tweak them, but it's too many, and fixing each one as I point it out is leaving it to me to find them. I can't do that on my own because I don't have the books; I also don't want to be in that position. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 18:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You should remain Neutral. In opposing and throwing your hands up in despair, you've damaged this article beyond repair. It will always be suspected as something of a copyvio 'cut and paste' job rather than a good faith attempt to create a serviceable article for Wikipedia. I hope you will not do this sort of thing to others. I've cooperated. I've revised the words and phrases you considered too close to the original and am willing to continue. Any relatively new editor (like me) can paraphrase without striking the right distance from the original. It's a process, an evolution -- trying to maintain the writer's original intent and meaning while creating a distance from it. All the sources used are available in public and university libraries so I don't view continuing this review as impossible. I'm willing to continue. There is still much time before the final stretch and if you cannot invest the time in continuing the review than you should remain Neutral rather than Oppose. This is not fair to me. I am being punished because you want to drop out. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 19:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Susanne, there are many articles at FAC needing review, reviewers are stretched thin, they don't have time or the responsibility to fix everything they find-- indeed, they shouldn't be doing that as it ties them up unnecessarily and the nominator has access to the sources. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:34, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, so how would you feel if your kid needed help with his homework, and you said don't bother me I've got other things to do? :) I understand but the issue for me is "the vote." SlimVirgin should not Oppose but Withdraw or remain Neutral. I'm involved in a similar situation with a GAN. I want to wash my hands of it and I can do that by Failing it. I shouldn't do that tho. The nominator of the GA is working along nicely with me and the issues involve some not so terrible things. But I'm busy with other stuff and don't have the time or interest to complete the review. The subject of the article is a book and I've gone so far as to order it at Amazon.com in order to properly review the plot! I'm only looking at the article every few days, but it is unethical for me to Fail it just to get rid of it.  Reviews take time and the object is to polish an article to a certain level. I took the GAN on and I should stick with it until it's finished. But the point here is, "the Vote".  In this case, withdraw or neutral is the appropriate response, not oppose. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you feel that way, Susanne. You're right that it can be difficult to juggle straying too close and too far from the sources; there's an essay at Close paraphrasing that might help. The difficulty with my continuing to help is that most of the sources aren't online, so I'd have to order them. But I've seen enough to suggest that there's an issue, so I wouldn't feel right about remaining neutral. I'm sorry it has upset you. SlimVirgin  talk| contribs 20:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

You should order the sources and continue with the review. The sources are available in public and university libraries. Call or email the library, ask them to pull the sources and have them ready at the front desk, have a friend pick them up if you can't. Reviewing means polishing an article to a certain level. I was counting on your help and feel abandoned. I'm making a good faith effort in writing this article for Wikipedia. I don't need an FA award for bragging rights. I just think Potter is a great author and needs some well-developed articles here. Anyway, I really appreciate your help as far as you decided to go. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Susanne, you may be misunderstanding a bit; reviewing does not "mean polishing an article to a certain level". The reviewer's task is only to determine if an article meets WP:WIAFA.  The nominator is expected to bring the article to FAC in compliance-- reviewers only check to see that it is, and can't be expected to actually do the (often long and difficult) work needed to bring an article to standard.  Considering the amount of paraphrasing issues Slim found, would you like to continue the nomination while you work on this, or withdraw and re-nominate?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:00, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. What good would renominating do if no one is checking the paraphrasing? I'm making a good faith effort but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I would like to remain in the queue but how will I ever know if my paraphrasing is acceptable? I feel I've been hit in the back of the head with a cement-filled stocking on this. I'm reading the essay on paraphrasing and looking at my work and the sources. I think my work is acceptable. I thought I was paraphrasing in an acceptable manner. What am I doing wrong? What am I going to do? Keep me in the queue. Maybe someone will have the balls to stick with me on this. Thanks! Susanne2009NYC (talk) 22:20, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Closing note: Susanne, considering other issues raised on your talk, I'm going to go ahead and close this, and ask that you carefully review The Story of Miss Moppet (all of those sources are offline, so reviewers might not have checked them). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I won't have time to check Miss Moppet immediately. Send Miss Moppet to AfD or blank the page. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 20:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.