Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thekla (daughter of Theophilos)/archive1

Thekla (daughter of Theophilos)
This article is about a Byzantine empress who was one of the only ones to ever hold real power, serving in the regency of her brother, Emperor Michael III alongside her mother. In spite of being one of the very few women to hold imperial power, she seems to have been disinterested in it before being deposed by her brother, later possibly being involved in an elaborate adulterous conspiracy, and later being stripped of her possessions and dying in obscurity. As with nearly all my nominations, she is more a victim of history than an actor in it. First brought to my attention when I reviewed the article for GAN, nominated by my friend User:Ichthyovenator, User:Unlimitedlead and I have worked to bring up to FAC standard in his absence and honor. Iazyges  Consermonor   Opus meum  11:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Nominator(s): Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  11:19, 11 February 2023 (UTC); User:Unlimitedlead; User:Ichthyovenator

Comments Support by Constantine
Reserving space for a review over the following days. Constantine  ✍  11:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC) That's it for a first pass. The article looks quite comprehensive, but I will have another look at my sources to see if anything is missing. Constantine  ✍  13:27, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Did some minor edits to save time
 * ought to be glossed as 'the Lady Theodora' or similar
 * Done.
 * than who? (Done)
 * BTW, I know this counts as OR, but I don't see this as evidence of anything: in the coin shown in the article, Thekla is shown larger because she was older than Michael III. Depending on the date of the coin, Thekla may have been a teenager or even twenty or thirty years old (!), whereas Michael was a child. Given that, I think too much is being read into here. Constantine  ✍  15:41, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Will address the comments tomorrow; FWIW, I tend to agree with you on this point, I think it's a case of earlier historians agreeing that she was associated with imperial power, and later ones working backward from there to consider the coins as proof. That being said, some European cultures at the time did display people's sized based on rank, rather than age, actual size, or position in the media, so it's not impossible for them to be correct. Either way, I'm not comfortable excluding it; perhaps a HQRS will come along and disagree with them at some point down the line. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  06:02, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * And, what is ref #17 in aid of? 'Herrin 2013, p. 327' is the book's index... Constantine  ✍  15:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Removed.
 * link 'Romans' to Byzantine Greeks?
 * Done.
 * 'their' may be a bit unclear here
 * Done.
 * repetition, and the article effectively speculates in Wikipedia's voice. Better smth like: "The historian William Greenwalt speculates on the reasons that drove Thekla to agree to this relationship: resentment for having been unmarried for so long, Basil's imposing physical stature, or political gain"
 * Done.
 * both here and in the lede, add date
 * Done.
 * Is it likely that Neatokometes will ever have his own article? The information provided by PmbZ is minimal. At best he would be a footnote in this article.
 * Removed.
 * Unlink also in the lede. Constantine  ✍  09:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Done.
 * Is the Monastery of Gastria the same convent where she was confined?
 * Done.
 * I would then unlink it here, as it suggests it is different to the link provided at, and would move the link for the building to 'convent'.
 * Done.
 * Mango 1973 is mis-cited: "ZRVI" is not the title of the article, but the abbreviation of the journal Zbornika Radova Vizantoloskog Instituta.
 * Whoops; honestly don't know how I messed that up...
 * Done all. Not expecting there to be much if anything left to add, source-wise, but happy to do whatever it takes to make it fully comprehensive. If passed, this will the be first featured Byzantine empress article, AFAIK, and I don't believe any others have even been nominated before, so I'd like to make this as perfect as possible (as well as to honor Ichthyovenator, we Byzantine editors are such a small bunch, after all). Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  17:19, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iazyges Thanks for taking care of these. I only got home this morning and didn't really have a chance to settle down, but when I did, I found that you already took care of Cplakidas' comments. Your swift and concise work is much appreciated. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:56, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * most of my comments have been taken care of by . Apart from a couple outstanding issues, there are a couple more:

That's it. Constantine  ✍  09:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't find much missing, although the PmbZ has some additional information that should have been included
 * A palace was built for the Augustae at ta Karianou
 * Thekla fell heavily ill in 843.
 * The PmbZ also includes info that according to the 'most common version' of the story, Thekla, Anna and Anastasia were first sent to the ta Karianou palace, and only later, after the confinement of Theodora there, to Gastria. Another version has all the women first sent to Karianou, and then to Gastria.
 * Added.
 * In general, given the brevity of the ODB entries, I recommend relying on the PmbZ for detailed accounts, especially when the sources are at variance.
 * Yeah; mea culpa I only checked that material here was accurate to source and assumed PmbZ was milked for all it was worth already.
 * 'Augusta' is traditionally capitalized, much like 'Augustus' and 'Caesar'.
 * Gog has raised a MOS JOBTITLE objection to that below. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  13:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, don't know if it is applicable given it is a Latin term, not English. But it is definitely not a deal breaker.
 * The foundation of the Gastria monastery is relevant and should be mentioned; the monastery was closely tied to the imperial family
 * Done.
 * It should also be made clear that during their stay in the monastery, the sources are contradictory whether they became nuns
 * Done.
 * The De Cerimoniis should also be described as being a Byzantine book from the 10th century (as otherwise its relevance is not clear).
 * Done.
 * For the ODB entries, I would recommend either including in the footnotes which article is cited, or separating the citations into different references (especially as the author may not be Kazhdan).
 * Included locs for the articles. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  13:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Done or responded to all. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  14:50, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the quick replies and the well-written edits, . I am happy to support at this point. Constantine  ✍  18:51, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Image review

 * File:Solidus_of_Theodora_II_(reverse).jpg needs a tag for photograph copyright. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @Nikkimaria I've added PD-Art|PD-old-100-1923; are these the appropriate tags? Unlimitedlead (talk) 13:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Unlikely given what the description says. The tag that was there before argued that the coin itself is in the public domain due to its age, which seems reasonable. What we're looking for now is a tag for the photograph - if as the description suggests it dates to 1970 (or possibly 2000?) the tags you've added cannot cover that). Nikkimaria (talk) 14:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria Interestingly, the source for the image says that this coin was part of an auction from October 2011, so this image may be too new to use? The source also has a banner at the top reading "SINCONA SWISS INTERNATIONAL COIN AUCTION AG", thus opening the possibility of using PD-art-70-2-3d-CH. However, this would again raise the question of which tag to use for the photograph itself, not the coin. What do you recommend we do? Unlimitedlead (talk) 14:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't speak German so can't tell whether there's licensing at the source site. Assuming no, you've got three options: get permission from the source site/photographer; find another photo of the coin that is free; or come up with a fair-use rationale (which will be challenging). Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Nikkimaria Would a cropped version of File:Byzanz- Michael III., Theodora und Thecla - Münzkabinett, Berlin - 5480493.jpg be acceptable? If so, I would need someone else (hopefully Iazyges) to help me out with uploading a cropped version of the file. Unlimitedlead (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, that looks fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. @Iazyges Would you mind assisting me with this task? Unlimitedlead (talk) 15:14, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
 * File has been cropped and introduced in place of non-permissible image. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  16:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

PCN02WPS
Happy to give this one a look - comments to come. PCN02WPS ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 02:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comments are below. PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 16:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe all the comments have been addressed or replied to. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Lead
 * "in 856 or some time before" → "by 856" sounds more concise
 * "Thekla fell out of favor, being beaten and having her property confiscated" → switch from past to present tense
 * Both fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Life
 * Reword sentence 4 to avoid using "however" per MOS:EDITORIAL
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:59, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * comma not needed between "eldest" and "on"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:59, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "the four sisters..." → I think this would sound better with commas after "sisters", "Maria", and "brothers"
 * Semi-done. Please see if it is to your liking. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Theophilos took great pride in his daughters" → this seems disconnected and out of place
 * Merged into a previous sentence. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "arranged to unite" → I don't think "arranged" is needed
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "is not only depicted on the coins at all" → I don't think this first part of the sentence is necessary, you could just say that she is depicted as being larger than Michael, therefore she is associated with imperial power
 * Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Philip Grierson comments" → "commented"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "of the coins minting" → "of the coins' minting"? or "coin's"?
 * I believe it's coins'. Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Ostrogorsky states" → "stated"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "placed in the same convent at the same time, or had already been there" → does this mean we don't know when they went or that we know that some of them were already there and the others went after/with Theodora?
 * It means that Thekla and her sisters either 1) were expelled all at once, or 2) they had all been at a convent together for some time.Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Some believe Michael did so after impregnating Eudokia" → should be directly attributed instead of saying "Some believe"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I know sources are likely on the scarce side about some of this stuff, but the first half of the last paragraph relies pretty heavily on Symeon just a few sentences after disputing his reliability as a source
 * I do not believe this to be an issue because the paragraph does not present the information as facts, but rather as the events as told by Symeon. Other than his words, we know very little about Thekla, so restating some of his claims, true or not, is something that should be included here. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The issue is in the very disparate sourcing that relates to this period, especially in relation to the affair; perhaps additional information should be moved over from Constantine (son of Basil I), but I feared undue weight. The main sources for Basil, and the whole alleged mistress swap business, are (1) the tradition of Symeon Logothete, who hates him, and wrote his works expressly against him, and those who later used his works as a basis, and (2) Basil's own son and grandson, (Leo VI the Wise and Constantine VII), and the ones that follow their tradition. Obviously, very biased and diametrically opposed sources. Moving in some of the explanations may help, I think, but Symeon must stay in my view; is he lying? In my view, yes, he is making the entirety of it up to dunk on Basil. That being said, his allegations have split the Byzantinist field in something like half, with many following his tradition (Cyril Mango most prominently), and others dismissing it out of hand (Nicholas Adontz and George Ostrogorsky), and still others stating that any combination is possible. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  23:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Well said. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Aged about 35" → is this stated directly by Symeon? If so we can ignore the possibility that she was born in the early 820s
 * I believe this is just Treadgold's statement. Historians do love to pick a single year for a person's birth even when it is unknown. Perhaps can verify this information. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Changed to "who Treadgold states is 35", as this is his statement, not Symeons. Even if it was Symeons, there are other sources who give other dates, so it wouldn't be conclusive. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  23:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "sometime after 870" → is this when Basil killed Michael or when she took John as a lover?
 * Michael died in 867, so this is when Thekla took John as a lover. I think this is made clear in the sentence. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "comments that Basil" → "commented that Basil"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "would already have good reason" → "would already have had good reason"
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * All should be done or responded to. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  23:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * After reading back through my only other question is about Symeon - is there a reason he's referred to by his first name rather than his last? PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 02:27, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Logothete is not his last name, it's his title. See Logothete. His actual last name is unknown (perhaps his family was not noble, and thus this information was therefore considered inconsequential). Historians have appended the title to his name in the way they would do if it was his last name, for reasons beyond my understanding. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  05:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - interesting. In that case everything of mine is taken care of so I'm happy to give this nom a thumbs-up. PCN02WPS  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 06:11, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.


 * "early 820/830s". This doesn't make sense. If it means anything, it means the 820s, which I assume is not what you mean. Perhaps go with c. 820/821, or 830, as you do in the article?
 * See my comment below regarding this. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "she was proclaimed Augusta". Why the upper-case A?
 * I have usually seen it capitalized; I'm assuming this is because Augusta is a title. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree, Augusta is usually capitalized; no idea why in particular. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The MoS overrules the sources. For why it shouldn't be capitalised see MOS:JOBTITLE.
 * Done. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:55, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "her mother becoming regent for Thekla's younger brother Michael III, Thekla was associated with the regime as co-empress." It is unclear who she was co-empress with.
 * Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "alongside her mother in by 856". :-) Pick one.
 * Ah, silly me. I have fixed it by cutting "by" and inserting a phrase separated by, you guessed it, commas. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "in Gastria". Want to check that link? And could we say something a bit broader? I doubt many readers would want, or understand, that level of detail in the lead.
 * Changed to Cyprus to make it more general. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed; the link to the Cyprus location is incorrect.
 * Thank you. Gog raised a point about being general, so I'm going to edit the text to simply read "Constantinople". Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "took power as the sole emperor for himself". "for himself" is unecessary.
 * Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:34, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "neglected as his mistress and she instead took another lover". Delete "instead".
 * Deleted. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "or early 830s". The previous sentence gives "830" - the singular year. "830s" contradicts this. Pick one.
 * The previous sentence stated that the year of the marriage between Theophilos and Theodora is unknown, but is guessed to be either 820, 821, or 830. Thus, Thekla would be born in the early 820s if her parents married in 820 or 821, or she would be born in the early 830s if they married in 830. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, my apologies.
 * No problem, I re-read it about 10 times to make sure when writing it; always fun having about fifty dates floating around, most contingent on the other. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:55, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Why is Bury introduced with initials?
 * Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "she is the only of the daughters". Has the word "one" gone missing?
 * Good catch. Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:40, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "were all proclaimed Augustae". Could we be told what this strange foreign term means? And why the upper-case A?
 * Explanation inserted; upper-case A addressed above. Unlimitedlead (talk) 18:42, 17 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "and thus opposed the veneration of icons". A little unpacking around this please. Possibly partially or wholly in a footnote.
 * I've done it entirely in a footnote, and I've taken advantage of it to make it pretty comprehensive; let me know if you think it needs trimming. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * "the threat faced by continued Arab invasions." That's not what you mean.
 * Could you clarify what this comment means? Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  20:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Try substituting "the threat faced by continued Arab invasions" with 'the threat they faced from continued Arab invasions'.


 * If this is about changing from "Arab" to "Muslim/Caliphate", I am not necessarily opposed, but do note that the source itself uses a similar term, when it says "Arab advances which threatened Christians both East and West." Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No. Reread what you wrote carefully. You have the marriage happening because the continuing Arab invasions faced a threat. Obviously not what you mean. Lots of ways you could rewrite. What I suggested. "faced" → 'posed'. Whatever.


 * "empress Theodora". Upper-case E.
 * Done.
 * "The depiction of Thekla as larger than Michael indicates her association with imperial power as co-empress." Could there be a better way to communicate that she was raised to co-empress - and who with - than tacking it on the end of a sentence about something else.
 * Done.
 * "confined to a convent in Gastria. 1. I assume you mean Sancaktar Hayrettin Mosque and not Cyprus? 2. Could we perhaps add that it was in Constantinople?
 * Done.
 * I don't want to appear awkward, but what does "to attempt to make political arrangements" even mean?
 * Changed to "Deal" for clarity that the following text explains it. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  20:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What is the " De Ceremoniis"?
 * Done.
 * Any idea when she died?
 * No, she disappears from historical record after. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  20:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 18:08, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * All comments should be dealt with or responded to. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * A couple of points above. I need to read through it properly, but looking good. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Done all. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  18:55, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Once more, dear friends

 * "as co-empress alongside Theodora and Michael." Could we have similar information in the main article.
 * Done. Now reads: "Thekla was associated with imperial power as co-empress alongside Theodora and Michael..." Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Symeon further writes that after Basil murdered Michael III in 867 and seized power for himself, Thekla then became neglected and took another lover". Perhaps 'After Basil murdered Michael III in 867 and seized power for himself, Symeon further writes that Thekla then became neglected and took another lover'?
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Thekla was then also beaten". Suggest deleting "then".
 * Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * @Gog the Mild I believe that should be it? Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So do I. Nice little article. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:54, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gog the Mild Thank you kindly. I just noticed that you said "dear friends". Perhaps this is just polite mannerism, but I will take it as a sign of endearment. Cheers Gog, Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:57, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a (mis-)quote, but yes, selected as a sign of endearment. May each of you generate many, many more FAs. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Source review – pass

 * I appreciate the article is using linked harvard referencing, but even so, if it is using abbreviations for the short citations "PmbZ", "ODB", please provide these as a convenience in the Bibliography, eg. "Prosopographie der mittelbyzantinischen Zeit (PmbZ)", "Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium (ODB)".
 * Done for ODB. PmbZ is in a template specifically for that source, so I'm not sure what to do there. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added the abbreviation to the template directly. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  06:10, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That was not necessary, you can always override the referencing by using  Have fixed it for you. Constantine   ✍  07:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Constantine. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Treadgold, Warren (1975) is missing an ISSN (2159-3159).
 * Assuming that 2159-3159 is the missing ISSN in question, it has been added. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Full source review to follow shortly. Nothing much of concern here; I've raised a couple of points above, but I'm generally happy that this is a well-sourced and accurate article, nice work. Harrias (he/him) • talk 09:18, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, all citations are consistently formatted in an appropriate style.
 * Searches in all the normal places don't reveal any obvious omissions.
 * Spotchecks carried out for source/text integrity, and for copyvio, close para-phrasing:
 * Ref #3, "Codoñer 2016, p. 464." – both uses okay.
 * Ref #4c, "In practical terms, Theodora ruled in her own right and is often recognized as an empress regnant by modern scholars." What the source actually says is "After the death of Theophilos in 842, she served as regent for Michael but the eunuch Theoktistos effectively held power.", which feels slightly different to what the article presents.
 * Appears Ichy pulled the text over without some of the backing; I've added another ref which describes Theodora as among those that "rule[d] autonomously or semiautonomously", among other descriptions of her power, and added the qualifier that Theoktistos had a lot of sway. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  09:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thanks. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 10:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Refs #4a,b,d,e, all okay.
 * Ref #15, all okay.
 * Ref #25, all okay, though it did lead me to notice the following:
 * "Thus Thekla, who Treadgold states was 35 at the time, became Basil's mistress in early 866, according to Symeon's narrative." Is it worth including that Symeon lists her as being 43 at the time? Harrias  (he/him) • talk 09:18, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Probably not; Symeon is almost certainly pulling an age out of his hat, to be honest, and it would go against what we've tried to establish that her birthdate is utterly uncertain. Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  09:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 10:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Done all; thank you for your time! Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  09:59, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the good work, happy to mark this as a pass. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 10:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm Talk 02:21, 4 March 2023 (UTC)