Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Theodore II Laskaris/archive1

Theodore II Laskaris

 * Nominator(s): Borsoka (talk) 02:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

This article is about a young Emperor of Nicaea (the most powerful successor state of the Byzantine Empire) who wrote several treatises about theological, historical and philosophical themes. He preferred the company of low born intellectuals which led to conflicts with the Nicaean aristocracy. He expanded the territory of his empire but died young due to a chronic illness, likely cancer. His Great Supplicatory Canon to Our Lady is still sung in Orthodox ceremonies. Borsoka (talk) 02:15, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Image review


 * Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
 * Fixed.


 * Don't use fixed px size
 * Deleted.


 * File:Theodoros_II_Laskaris.jpg is incorrectly tagged
 * Fixed.


 * File:149_-_John_III_Doukas_Vatatzes_(Mutinensis_-_color).png needs a tag for status in source country, as it's hosted on Commons. Ditto File:150_-_Theodore_II_Laskaris_(Mutinensis_-_color).png
 * Both fixed.


 * File:Hyperpyron_of_Theodore_II_(reverse).jpg needs a tag for the original work
 * Fixed (I hope).


 * File:Aspron_trachy_of_Theodore_II_Laskaris.png needs a US tag for the original work as well as a tag for the photograph copyright
 * Deleted.


 * File:1263_Mediterranean_Sea.svg is missing a data source, and see MOS:COLOUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Deleted.

Thank you for your image review. Borsoka (talk) 09:50, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I added a map and a picture. Borsoka (talk) 10:56, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * New map also has a colour issue. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:22, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * File:1263_Mediterranean_Sea.svg is used in Byzantine Empire, a featured article. The article contained the same map when it was reassessed years ago. Do you think if sources were added the map could be used in this article? Borsoka (talk) 02:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The COLOUR issue would also need to be addressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi was this resolved? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I would keep the map. It is used in an other FA. Borsoka (talk) 01:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Funk

 * I'll review this soon. FunkMonk (talk) 22:25, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Ruins of the walls of Nicaea" Link Nicaea in caption, and state where it is today?
 * Done.


 * "began at the age when most aristocratic children were taught to write and read" Do we know what that age was?
 * Clarified.


 * "words with multiple meaning" Meanings?
 * Fixed.

Thank you for starting the review. Borsoka (talk) 05:10, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "Elena of Bulgaria died unexpectedly before the end of August." Do we know of what?
 * No, we do not know. This is now mentioned in the article.


 * "Arsenios' allegedly irregular appointment" Why irregular?
 * Explained.


 * The two images under Youth strike me as almost identical. I wonder if it would make sense and take up less space to place them side by side in a multiple image template?
 * Yes, I have been also thinking of it. I deleted Theodore's picture because his portrait is placed in the infobox, so we do not need another one.


 * "Two Macedonian towns, Veles and Skopje" You use ancient Greek names for many locations, but at least Skopje doesn't read much like it?
 * My source is not consequent. What do you suggest? Shall I change the names?


 * Link Michael VIII Palaiologos in image caption. Perhaps even link Byzantine Empire in the same caption?
 * Done, although Nikkimaria noted above that the map is problematic.


 * Link epilepsy?
 * Linked.


 * Link Orthodox monk?
 * Linked.


 * "Theodore became a monk" What became of his wife, then?
 * She had died years before Theodore became a monk (as it is mentioned in the article).
 * Ah, that's what happens when you don't read an article in one go... FunkMonk (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * "after the Turkish conquest of the region in the 14th century" Something to link?
 * Link added.


 * "Michael VIII married off his three sisters" Probably good to specify if this was John's sisters.
 * Clarified. Borsoka (talk) 05:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Support - looking good to me, only thing left is that it may be difficult to see what the last "he" in the following sentence refers to, but I'm not sure what can be done about it: "He appointed George Mouzalon regent for his underage son, John IV, before he died of either chronic epilepsy or cancer". FunkMonk (talk) 14:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I am really grateful for your thorough review and thank you for your support. I made an attempt to fix the problematic sentence . Borsoka (talk) 02:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

 * "to forge an alliance with her father, Ivan Asen II". I think it would be clearer to add "Emperor of Bulgaria", even though it means repeating Bulgaria".
 * Done.


 * "When he wed Irene, he served as the commander of the imperial guard." This seems to say that he served during the wedding. Maybe "After his marriage to Irene, he served as the commander of the imperial guard."
 * Alternative solution.


 * "Vatatzes had to defeat the late emperor's brothers, Alexios and Isaac Laskaris, to seize the throne. His victory over his wife's uncles and their Latin allies" I would preferr "His victories over them and their Latin allies".
 * Done.


 * "If Theodore's formal education began around the age of six when most aristocratic children were taught to write and read, he was entrusted to an elementary teacher's care in 1228." This could be clearer. I take it that you mean that the date of 1228 depends on the usual starting age for education, but I had to read it two of three times to get it.
 * Rephrased.


 * "Theodore approached a most renowned teacher, Nikephoros Blemmydes, to take philosophy classes from him." This is ambiguous who was the teacher. Maybe "Theodore asked to join the philosophy classes of a renowned teacher, Nikephoros Blemmydes."
 * Alternative solution.


 * "In his history, Akropolites mentioned". This implies that you have previously mentioned his history, but you have not.
 * Akropolites's history is introduced in section "Education".


 * "visited most Anatolian towns and villages". most? Nicaea only occupied part of Anatolia.
 * Changed.


 * An English language version of c:File:Quatrième croisade-es.svg would be helpful, although the last time I asked for help at Graphics Lab/Map workshop I got no reply.
 * I think it would be misleading because by the time of Theodore's reign the Kingdom of Thessalonica had disappeared, and Nicaea had seized large territories in Thrace, Macedonia and Thessaly.


 * "Vatatzes was making preparations for a new attack on Constantinople, but the ruler of Epirus, Michael II Komnenos Doukas (r. 1230–1266/68), invaded Nicaean territory in Macedonia in the spring of 1252." Grammatically, I think you need a date after "on Constantinople".
 * Changed.


 * More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I highly appreciate your comprehensive review and your suggestions. I addressed most of the issues, and I will address the two pending issues in a day. Borsoka (talk) 11:00, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay. I think I addressed all the issues you raised above. Borsoka (talk) 02:29, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "Theodore forbade his father's widow, Anna-Constanza, from returning to her Sicilian homeland. This act outraged her brother, Manfred (r. 1258–1266), who had recently assumed power in the Kingdom of Sicily." The dating looks wrong here. You say Theodore forbade her from returning to Sicily after her husband died in 1254 and that her brother had recently assumed power, but he did not become king until 1258.
 * Manfred, who as an illegitimate son of Emperor Frederick II, assumed power in Sicily when his legitimate half brother Conrad IV died in 1254, but he was crowned king only years later. Borsoka (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This needs to be explained in the article. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * An explanatory footnote added. Borsoka (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)


 * " Kaliman (r. 1256– )". A dash implies to an unknown date, not in 1256. I would delete it.
 * Fixed. Borsoka (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "Theodore decided to resume negotiations about a church union between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches with Pope Alexander IV". This seems to exaggerate Theodore's authority. Presumably he could only have decided for the Orthodox church in his own territory.
 * I need one or two days to check the source. In theory, the Roman Emperors regarded themselves as heads of the Orthodox world in accordance with the principle of cesaropapism. Borsoka (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I see now that he is decribed as Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans in the infobox but not in the text. All details in the infobox should be in the main text. Also, you should clarify how far his claim to speak for orthodoxy would have been accepted outside his own territory. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I deleted the unverified title from the infobox and modified the text. The source write of the Byzantine Church but in the article's context I preferred to refer to the Nicaean Church to avoid confusion. Borsoka (talk) 02:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)


 * The article is often difficult to follow without a detailed knowledge of local geography. It is unfortunate that the only map is no help as it post-dates Byzantine reunification, but I assume that no better map is available. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree: a map would significantly improve the article, but I have not found any. Borsoka (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.


 * "including those of low birth." Optional: 'including some of low birth.'
 * Done.


 * "He made a defensive alliance with Kaykaus II ... He repelled a Bulgarian invasion of Thrace and Macedonia and forced Michael II Komnenos Doukas, the ruler of Epirus, to cede Dyrrachium". If the dates of any of these three are known, their addition would be helpful.
 * Done.


 * "Theodore could not actually risk launching an attack". Delete "actually".
 * Done.


 * "but the change in his position did not prevent him from making arrangements for the publications of his works." I fail to see why it might.
 * Deleted.


 * Sources: all article titles should be consistently in either sentence case or title case. How they appear in their originals is irrelevant.
 * Done.


 * Sources: be consistent as to whether publisher locations are included.
 * Done.


 * The family tree sprawls off screen on every device I have looked at it on. Consider turning it into an image, so that it will display according to user-determined criteria.
 * My device shows it nicely. I do not know how to turn it into an image.
 * Let's leave that to the image reviewer then.


 * "according to scholarly consensus". Is it necessary to add this? Surely everything in the article is according to scholarly consensus.
 * Deleted.


 * "although tradition required the presentation of three candidates." The presentation of three candidates to whom or what?
 * Done.


 * "the "Arsenite Schism"". Which was what?
 * Link added. Borsoka (talk) 02:30, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "as the new megas domestikos." What is a "megas domestikos"?
 * Modified.


 * "to chase the Bulgarians." Perhaps "chase" → 'pursue'?
 * Done.


 * "they broke into a run in panic". Perhaps 'they retreated in a panic'?
 * Done.


 * "he confirmed the fiscal privileges of Macedonian towns." If all of them, this should be 'he confirmed the fiscal privileges of the Macedonian towns'; if only some, 'he confirmed the fiscal privileges of some Macedonian towns.'
 * Done.


 * "Theodore decided to resume negotiations about a church union". You say resume negotiations, but this is - I think - the first time they have been mentioned. Perhaps briefly introduce them? And which churches were being considered for unification, and why or how did Theodore get a say in this? Re-reading the paragraph about this, it may be helpful if you put things in chronological order: ie the background to the schism before the unification negotiations.
 * A footnote added to provide context.


 * "After he fell victim to a new plot, Rostislav Mikhailovich". I think it would be better to replace "he" with a name.
 * Done.


 * Could "Via Egnatia" be explained in line, per MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links."
 * A footnote added.


 * Similarly "ecumenical council".
 * Done.


 * Family: much of the information about Elena has already been given. I suggest consolidating it in one place.
 * Done.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thorough review and suggestion. I think I addressed all but one. Borsoka (talk) 01:18, 19 August 2023 (UTC)


 * "He ordered that books that he and his father". Is there a way to avoid "that" twice in three words? (I suspect that the second one should be 'which', but I don't insist.)
 * Done.


 * Is  Maïos Débélikourtos a person's name? If so, it shouldn't be in italics.
 * Done.


 * "The child John IV was blinded on 25 December 1261, which prevented him from ruling." Link to Political mutilation in Byzantine culture. (I quite like the first image in that article too.)
 * Already linked to blinded.
 * I think that almost every reader will understand what "blinding" means. Virtually none will understand the political implications of blinding a member of the Byzantine royalty. I suggest that you change the link.

A cracking article, which I enjoyed reading. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:52, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you also for your edits. One of the sources, Angelov's book is one of the best written biographies I have ever read. Borsoka (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Possibly a little niche for a casual read, especially when I have this article to summarise it. But readable as well as learned sources are a joy, aren't they? Just the blinding issue holding back a support. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:34, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. Yes, reading learned sources is always a joy. Borsoka (talk) 01:14, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Source review

 * You have sources with titles in a mix of title and sentence cases, pick one or the other.
 * Sources and refs are otherwise properly formatted.
 * The sources are highly reliable.
 * Cites 26, 35, 38, 51, 70 validated--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:52, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your source review. As to the titles, already mentioned a similar issue. I think the titles are consequent: chapter titles are in sentence case, book and journal titles are in title case. Borsoka (talk) 02:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A title is a title; chapter titles are not italicized and are enclosed in quotation marks in contrast to book and journal titles.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 08:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I still do not understand your concern although I re-read sections "Sources" and "Further reading". Could you explain me which of the titles should be changed and how? Borsoka (talk) 08:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
 * All titles should be consistently capitalized, regardless whether in a journal or book, in either title case or sentence case.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Done, although I think the method was consistent with a clear and consequent distinction between chapter titles and journal or book titles. Borsoka (talk) 04:10, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Look more closely at the journal entry; the template handles that and nothing further needs to be done to distinguish them.

Support--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Unlimitedlead
Reviewed at PR; happy to do so again. Please bear with me. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:20, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, this has been open a long time and I'm looking to close unless you still want to weigh in (promptly...!). Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:42, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I do not think I will be able to do so in a timely manner. Apologies for any inconvenience. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:50, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Borsoka, is there a single source for that extensive family tree? I checked several names there and found them mentioned and cited in the main body but is that true of all of them? At the very least, I'm a bit confused about the recurring name Theodora... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:06, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I need 2 or 3 days to check it because I have no access to my library now. Yes, Theodora was a quite popular name. Borsoka (talk) 05:30, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I added a source for the family tree. Yes, all individuals who lived in Theodore's time are mentioned in the article. Borsoka (talk) 01:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Pinging. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:51, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Tks Borsaka (sorry for not getting back sooner but internet access was intermittent for a while). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)