Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thriller (album)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 22:37, 9 April 2008.

Thriller (album)
I'm nominating this article for featured article statues because...

I believe it reaches the critera needed, and I haven't seen many better album articles. Any improvements needed I will make, so just tell me what needs improving and it will be done. It's the 25th anniversary of Thriller (think Thriller 25), and I'm determined to get it to the top. I am the Self-nominator. I know the guys career inside out so if you're confused about anything I should be able to explain my reasoning.Realist2 (talk) 22:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

'''*I have left a message on Ealdgyths page asking her if there is anything else he would like to add since ive completed his list. Hopefully he will return when he's not busy.''' --Realist2 (talk) 10:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * She has already returned and everything is taken care of regarding sources. All resolved and hidden away. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

*I have completed the list by Dizfreak, i have informed him, hopefully he will return. --Realist2 (talk) 10:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

*I have completed the list by Efe, i have informed him, im sure he will update his position as well. --Realist2 (talk) 10:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

* I have done 90% of Indopug's list, i have contacted him asking him to update his opinion in the hope that maybe he is satisfied with the progress already made, hopefully he will return, --Realist2 (talk) 11:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the nomination, i dont intend to do anymore. --Realist2 (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments


 * All other links checked out fine with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments This review was taken from the article's PR. I pasted it here as requested. --Efe (talk) 03:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Cut "and the second produced in collaboration with Quincy Jones" from "Thriller is the sixth studio album by American pop singer Michael Jackson" for it to be general. Maybe you can insert the former to the following sentences.
 * DONE --Realist2 (talk) 05:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Im interested to read about the style of the album.
 * DONE
 * There is an inconsistent formatting of dates here; from MM-DD-YY to DD-MM-YY.
 * DONE
 * "debuting his signature move - the moonwalk." This must be em dash, not hyphen.
 * DONE
 * I think it would be better to expand recording (production, any background), and split it from release.
 * DONE - not quite to your extent but its better
 * Why do you have to mention the releases of every single?
 * DONE - took a single out and took some of the positions out of the others
 * "This harsh stance worked" sounds POV.
 * DONE
 * Inconsistency on formatting texts. Time to TIME. Magazines should be in italics, like TIME and Billboard.
 * DONE
 * Inline citations should go after the punctuation and do not put space.
 * DONE
 * Some sentences are stubby.
 * DONE
 * "Although singles had already fallen in importance, Thriller's release firmly established albums as the dominant force in the industry." Any source? And sounds POV.
 * DONE
 * Are awards related to "Influence and legacy"? This must be in reception or response of something.
 * DONE
 * "High profile samples and covers" are these samples really a high profile? It would be better also if you convert these lists to prose. And by the way, these are for the songs, not the album itself.
 * Yes they are high profile ive been keeping it to those five or six, people add silly ones but their quickly deleted, it shows sampleing of all most all the big songs on the album, you cant sample an album, you sample something from it, songs from the album are sampled by lots of people, thats what it shows.
 * What I mean is this an article about an album. It does not give any significance to the article; this must be written in each song sampled by various singers. --Efe (talk) 10:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I can write it in pros, the list is showing how many songs from the album are being sampled, you cant sample an album, you sample part of it, the fact that songs are being sampled by the likes of kanye west all the way to the prodigy show that it had cross over apply. It was this cross over apply that made, pop, rock, funk, gospel fans buy the album.
 * Ok. Write it in prose so that it will look good; lets see if it works. BTW, the PR was already closed. --Efe (talk) 11:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK i quickly altered it, it might need cleaning up and twiging but i think the alteration gives these samples a little more context.
 * DONE
 * Remove the chart positions in the track listing area.
 * Why remove the singles positions, one of the achievements of the album is that it has the most top ten hits, its an actual record this album has achieved, its part of the albums accomplishment.
 * Sales are highly unsourced, as well as certifications.
 * A lot has to be cleaned-up in the later part of the article.
 * DONE
 * The list below "Thriller 25 sales" do not look good.
 * DONE
 * Is it important to mention credits on the re-released album?
 * You would be supprised how much interest that gets
 * References are inconsistently formatted. Some dates (publication date, not the accessdate) are not enclosed in parenthesis. Years must not be linked, unless it is preceded with a complete date.
 * DONE
 * Some sources do not pass against WP:RS, most especially the fanclub sites.
 * DONE all sources are reliable, the only time fan sources are used is when it links to an offical sony press release on sales, shipments and rekease dates. They have all come from sony directly.

OPPOSE for reasons I list below. Needs a lot of work.--DizFreak talk Contributions 18:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments Founds several issues which I feel need to be dealt with before it comes close to FA.Maybe it needs a completed PR?--DizFreak talk Contributions 17:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC) Michael Jackson's Billie Jean video airs on MTV, which subsequently plays more pop and R&B videos, including ...
 * Fails FA 1(a) Several grammatical errors such as "because the market had since weakened so Jackson threatening to pull the album release."
 * DONE
 * Neither ref 22 or 23 address "MTV, a struggling cable channel, became huge. Jackson's videos were credited to this success and MTV's focus switched from rock to pop and R&B.[22][23]". They only address the fact MTV became more popular.
 * DONE - the sources are ok per below copy and pastes from sources themselves
 * OK these are direct qoutes from the sources;-
 * A)"Older fans still remember the Jackson 5 lead singer who won legions of fans with songs such as "ABC" and "Ben." They may fondly recall how Jackson moonwalked for the first time across the stage at Motown's 25th anniversary special in 1983 and put MTV on the map with pioneering videos such as "Thriller," "Billie Jean" and "Beat It.""
 * B)"Michael has always been charismatic," Silberman said. "Michael Jackson was the first black artist to be played regularly across the board on radio stations, MTV; he was the first to have that kind of crossover appeal. Still, despite the scandals and bad press that he has had, he has always been fantastic as a performer. Michael's electrifying."
 * C)
 * March 1983
 * Michael Jackson's Billie Jean video airs on MTV, which subsequently plays more pop and R&B videos,
 * including ...
 * December 1983
 * Michael Jackson's 14-minute Thriller film, which raises the ambition bar for music video.
 * September 1984
 * First MTV Video Music Awards
 * I think that clearly shows it, it even shows that the MTV awards started running shortly after these videos aired. What more do you need?
 * I do not see how your quote addressed the fact I mentioned above [i]MTV's focus switched from rock to pop and R&B.[/i], only that they played more of it. --DizFreak talk Contributions 19:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

December 1983 Michael Jackson's 14-minute Thriller film, which raises the ambition bar for music video. September 1984 First MTV Video Music Awards
 * I think that clearly shows it, it even shows that the MTV awards started running shortly after these videos aired. What more do you need?
 * Nor does it state the VMA had a direct correlation with the video music awards. I have yet to see someone say "We started the Video Music Awards due to inspiration by Michael Jackson" --DizFreak talk Contributions 19:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE OK i re did it with exact par quotes from the sources.
 * Fails FA 1(d) and FA 4. The section Highly Publicized Events reads more like a Michael Jackson page, very little on Thriller (album). When it does mention Thriller it reads as if it is tacked on.
 * DONE OK, trimmed out a lot of the waffle. However these issues are important, people ask, why? and how? did thriller outsell every other album by so much, these events are attributed to the high album sales, additionally Thriller broke racial barriers and MJ going to the White House is an example of this. Before thriller the president would never have allowed a black entertainer to step foot on the whitehouse carpet.
 * Under Influence and Legacy The quote from Time Magazine is from the year it won many Grammys. How does this address the influence the album has twenty-plus years later?
 * DONE
 * Thriller 25 template overlaps the Thriller 25 Sales.
 * DONE

To sum up, as far as i can see, from the list I have done everything, im just waiting for a reply about a source format Realist2 (talk) 22:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok thats resolved, i believe the entire request list has been completed. Realist2 (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose: because the article becomes extraordinarily listy and unreadable below the "Influence and legacy" section.
 * Samples and covers is unnecessary; "high profile" is POV anyway and the information could (maybe) be included in the indiviual song articles.
 * Removed heading to get rid of POV
 * Including a chart listing along with the track listing is completely incorrect and at ods with everything else on Wikipedia. Please make it like any other album article.
 * DONE
 * I oppose the use of separate infoboxs and sections for the two Thriller re-releases. Merge the release info of these albums into the main Release section of the article, keep the Track listings for three versions in one section etc. Those additional infoboxs are unnecessary and you can put those album covers in the release section.
 * I removed large sections of the info boxes for the re-releases, might make it better
 * I really hate the extremely detailed information of the Thriller 25 section. Its just release date after release date and the whole thing is immensely unreadable and boring. Realise that when many many years from now if people were to read this article they would want the "Behind-the-scenes making of", an analysis of the music inside and why critics/everybody thought it was so great. Not sure that readers will ever care that ""Wanna Be Startin' Somethin' 2008" reached #3 in Sweden, #4 in New Zealand, #8 in Australia, #32 in Canada, but saw disappointing sales in America.[52][53][38][54][55]." (also copy-edit; there are two full-stops there).
 * Removed chunks of info singles positions still there but chunks of other non important stuff removed
 * The two huge Sales sections are, again, too detailed for my liking. FAs are supposed to be not-too-listy. I wonder if a separate article called Sales, certifications, charting history and awards for Thriller (or sumthin' like that) can hold all the tables of information the present arrticle unfortunately has. Then, the Thriller article can be dedicated to information in prose.
 * Cut out half of the info at the very bottom
 * "Mariah Carey,[24] Usher,[25] Britney Spears,[24] Janet Jackson,[10] Kanye West, Rihanna,[26] and Chris Brown[27]" - If you are going list each every person who liked Thriller, its gonna be a long list. Besides a list of people's names really helps anybody understand the importance of this album or why it was considered so great. If you could include a succinct quote from an artist explaining how the album changed his/her life, it would be much more informative, interesting and readable.
 * Cut list of singers in half, not so OTT anymore, added a person quote as well,
 * I'm very disappointed with how sparse the first three sections of the article, the most important part of the article. The article is not comprehensive either, for example:
 * What did contemporary critics, just when it was released, think of it? That it was an international smash is known, but did any critic dismiss the album as crappy?
 * DONE
 * The recording section is too small; surely more information about the how made the album was made is out there. Even if Jackson doesn't speak much about the making, surely Quincy or somebody else involved would've said something. Was MJ a tyrant during recording, was his behaviour eccentric; all interesting stuff/gossip people expect from a Wikipedia album FA (See Loveless and Be Here Now. Have you used info from the The Making of Michael Jackson's Thriller?
 * DONE
 * The music, well, hardliy anything is written about this too. Please do a little more research and I'm sure you'll find that some nerdy musicologist has micro-analysed the music on the album.
 * Not sure about 'highly publicised events', haven't seen a section name like that anywhere. But the info is okay.
 * There is no other way to describe it.
 * The Influence and Legacy should be expanded to double its size if you want pay justice to the impact of the album; what about how MJ's weird clothes were a huge fad for a while etc? Also, with expansion, the section could be expanded to be sub-sectioned: Impact on MTV, Impact on artists, Impact on the music industry... because it did have huge impact. (If not sub-sections, then a big paragraph for each of these points)
 * DONE - think thats big enough now
 * Quite simply, overall, the article is very very detailed in places where it needn't be and, indeed, where details would the hamper the entire article (Charts, sales, release info). Worse, The article contains virtually no information on the Recording, the Production, Contemporary criticism and not enough on Legacy. indopug (talk) 02:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * PS: Seeing this, "[3][4][5][6][7]", in the lead is butt-ugly.
 * DONE
 * It would be better to leave the lead neat by removing all these sources. Just be sure you source them fully below. --Efe (talk) 06:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * DONE
 * Note Splitting up comments from reviewers by replying to every line makes the FAC page very difficult to read. Per the FAC instructions: "If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so after the reviewer's signature rather than striking out or splitting up the reviewer's text." Budding Journalist 18:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Another note More importantly, you should never delete comments made by other editors, especially not with the glib edit summary of "repeating yourself". I have since restored the latter comment. Budding Journalist 19:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose Far too many prose/grammar issues. Prose needs a major overhaul. Examples highlighted below, but note that these are examples only. Please do not fix only these.
 * "Thriller enabled Jackson to become the predominant pop star of the late 20th century; allowing him to break down racial barriers by appearing on MTV, and begin his work as a humanitarian by allowing his songs to be used for charitable causes." Misused semicolon. "allowing him...allowing his" is quite awkward; parallelism breaks down as a result of this construct. How exactly does an album "allow" someone to break racial barriers? Or "allow" someone to begin charitable work? And are you certain Jackson did not do any charitable work before its release?
 * "...interviews a decade, however Jones and Temperton gave detailed recorded accounts of what occured" Who is Temperton? Please introduce names on first use. Comma splice. Spot the spelling error.
 * "Jones discusses "Bille Jean" and why it was so personal to Jackson who was struggling to cope with obsessed fans." Spot the missing comma and the spelling error. Why the sudden use of present tense with "discusses"?
 * "Jones and Jackson were determined to make a rock song that would appeal to both races spending weeks looking for a suitable guitarist until they found Eddie Van Halen." "Both races"? Not all races? And no mention of what "both" means (presumably black and white?). In any case, what does having to appeal to both races have to do with finding a suitable guitarist? Two disparate ideas clumped awkwardly together into a single sentence. Please use commas! Finally, this entire paragraph is a mishmash of different ideas and has no flow.
 * "they didn't fit the direction the album was going" Avoid contractions in encyclopedic language.
 * "Thriller was released on November 30, 1982, to high sales." Spot the unneeded comma.
 * "It was #1 in both the United States and the United Kingdom..." "Both" is unnecessary. Please spell out "#1".
 * "global pop culture; replicated everywhere from Bollywood, to prisons in the Philippines" Again, semicolon abuse.
 * "because he was Afro-American" Dated terminology.
 * "CBS Records President Walter Yetnikoff denounced MTV, saying, "I'm not going to give you any more videos..." "Denounce" is not the right word here.
 * "The film scared viewers (especially the younger audience) but marked an increase in scale for music videos..." Huh? Not a logical contradiction. The necessity of the first half is unclear.
 * "Debuting his signature move – the moonwalk Jackson's performances during the event helped many view..."
 * "When the actual recording of events aired..." Huh?
 * "On March 7, 1985, the song "We Are the World"; a charity single to aid people"
 * "Even Rap artists such as Kanye West..." Rap is capitalized because...?
 * "In 2001 Timberlake and Spears meet their idol in person through a friend."
 * "They both praised him saying:" They both said the same exact thing? Note the lack of punctuation/typos in the quotation. Budding Journalist 19:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the nomination, im not doing anymore. Realist2 (talk) 20:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Conclusion
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.