Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tintin in the Congo/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:01, 8 September 2013 (UTC).

Tintin in the Congo

 * Nominator(s): Prhartcom (talk) and Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC) 

We are nominating this for featured article status because it has achieved GA status and we believe that it now also meets FA criteria. After the recent promotion of Tintin in the Land of the Soviets to FA status, we feel that it is time that its successor volume, Tintin in the Congo, did too. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is certainly a good candidate for FA status. I do, however, have some severe reservations about one phrase, which I admit has been used word-for-word elsewhere. "According to Tintinologist Harry Thompson, such political ideas were common in Belgium at the time, where "patriotism, Catholicism, strict morality, discipline, and naivety were so inextricably bound together in everyone's lives that right-wing politics were an almost inevitable by-product."" I do not doubt that Mr. Thompson does say this, but it's also undeniably untrue - or at least not quite as authoritative as it is made to seem. Granted that the Catholic Party (and later, but to a lesser extent, Rex) was dominant through almost all this period, it neglects the equally large number of people who voted Liberal, Socialist or Communist. Some acknowledgement that Mr. Thompson's comment refers to a certain class, locality etc. in Belgium in which Hergé mixed at the time would remedy this I'm sure.Brigade Piron (talk) 21:18, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Very interesting point Brigade Piron; it is true that Thompson was no historian. Maybe we could think about rephrasing this. Perhaps something like "Conservative ideas revolving around ""patriotism, Catholicism, strict morality, discipline, and naivety" pervaded Herge's milieu" ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:21, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Yes, I think that would cover it nicely, though I think the politics of the newspaper itself could be helpfully emphasized in the same sentence? Otherwise I think the article would be a good adition to the FA and, to me at least, seems extremely well done.Brigade Piron (talk) 16:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and made the alteration. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Image check - fair-use OK some issues (fair-use). A topic like that can have more than 1 fair-use image, but the current usage needs some work: 2 GA-reviews for an article with 5 fair-use images did not even comment on this aspect. But that's a problem outside of FAC and certainly not the nominators' fault. GermanJoe (talk) 13:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * File:The_Adventures_of_Tintin_-_02_-_Tintin_in_the_Congo.jpg - OK for identification.
 * File:BaBaorum_in_Tintin.JPG - not OK. Purpose of use is far too vague. But the bigger problem is, that the article already has a comparison between the 1931 and 1946 style. The content could be easily described as text, no detailed discussion of the content.
 * File:Opening_of_Tintin_in_the_Congo.JPG - OK (if the second image gets replaced or removed) . One minor point: the caption reads "1932 version", the summary has 1931?
 * File:Angry_King_in_Tintin.JPG - OK, extensive discussion of the racism aspect in the article.
 * File:Pappa_in_Afrika.jpg - not OK. Only a brief mention of this parody in the text. Visual impression can, and is, easily described as text.

Looking very strong. A few comments:
 * "Muganga pleads mercy" - I've never heard the phrase "plead mercy"- is it definitely standard English? If so, I'm happy for it to stay.
 * Is Coeurs Vaillants notable? Don't be scared of redlinks!
 * I assume it was originally published in French? I ask because you don't mention translation with the syndication.
 * Again, is Henry de Doncker notable?
 * "English publishers stubbornly refused to publish" I think calling it "stubborn" is a little judgemental.
 * "its controversial content" - What content specifically?
 * "while Tintin was portrayed throughout as a Scout, reflecting Hergé's "moral debt" to Wallez" I don't really understand what is meant here.
 * The Simon Kuper quote seems a little tacked-on; I think it would fit a little better in the first paragraph in the section
 * "In November 2011, UK bookseller Waterstones" Funny little point, but at that stage, the shop was still called Waterstone's (with an apostrophe)

The prose is generally excellent, but I am a little concerned about some of the images. (I now see that GermanJoe has raised basically the same concerns above- I endorse Joe's comments. J Milburn (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2013 (UTC))
 * File:The Adventures of Tintin - 02 - Tintin in the Congo.jpg is clearly justified with a detailed rationale.
 * File:BaBaorum in Tintin.JPG is questionable. It's unclear what it's illustrating- the differences between editions is better shown in the image below (which is also more appropriately placed). I'd recommend removing it- at the very least, a more careful rationale would be needed, and the old version of the image needs to eb deleted (see orphaned non-free revisions)
 * File:Opening of Tintin in the Congo.JPG is a good image, but, again, an expanded rationale and the deletion of the old revision would be helpful.
 * File:Angry King in Tintin.JPG is fine, with an appropriate rationale.
 * File:Pappa in Afrika.jpg is potentially justified, but I'd like to see a little more about this book in the article- at the very least, a mention that the art style imitates Hergé's.

Generally a great-looking article, and I'm sure I'll be happy to support once these issues are dealt with. J Milburn (talk) 16:10, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Previously the article had no image reviews, now it has two :). No worries, and i agree with deleting the old fair-use versions (i guess, it can be done by adding "subst:furd", even if it's not a reduction). GermanJoe (talk) 16:48, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments J Milburn! I have linked to Coeurs Vaillants and specified that the story was first serialised in French. I think it worth including the name of Henry De Donkcer, but not worth linking it, as (as far as I am aware), he did nothing else to achieve notability in his life. I agree that "stubbornly" shouldn't be in there (I don't think that it was my addition in the first place), so I've removed it. I've replaced "controversial" with "alleged racist". I've tried to clarify the "reflecting Hergé's "moral debt" to Wallez" sentence. I've moved the Simon Kuper quote as you have suggested, and altered the spelling to "Waterstone's". Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:35, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Support, on the condition that the source check comes back OK. I'm satisfied with the resolution of the issues I raised, confident that the small fixes recommended below can be looked into. J Milburn (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I have also removed the two images that the two reviewers above deem to not be Fair Use. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment - tagged the 2 images and one old version of a valid fair-use for deletion. They are usually only deleted after a week (at 19 August), if you still need them for other purposes and want to change the tag and FUR. GermanJoe (talk) 12:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Updated status on my review (all OK), could you clarify the minor mismatch 1931 <-> 1932 in the caption and summary of the "Opening" image? GermanJoe (talk) 12:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Its 1931; "1932" was probably a silly error on my behalf. Thanks for your review GermanJoe; much appreciated! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian

 * Support. Well done and good luck! —Cliftonian (talk) 23:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I just want to say a big thank you to you, Cliftonian, as I think that your comments have made a major positive contribution to this article! Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's really no problem Midnight, I'm glad you found them helpful and very much like the way the article is shaping up now. I'm happy to back this now for FA, and have supported above. —Cliftonian (talk) 23:13, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by FunkMonk
I'll add some comments as I read along. FunkMonk (talk) 03:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In the summary, why is there a single direct quote form the dialogue? Seems a bit arbitrary: "and a local woman bows down to him, saying, "White man very great! Has good spirits ... White mister is big juju man!"
 * What is the meaning of this: "tarantara, tarantaraboom"
 * "Henry Morton Stanley's discovery of the Congo" ... River?
 * "Hergé biographer Pierre Assouline believed that Hergé's drawing became more assured throughout the story without losing any of its spontaneity." In which version?
 * " Philippe Goddin thought the work to be "more exciting than ever" Ever? In relation to what?
 * the infobox only lists Egmont as the publisher, what about Casterman?
 * "which contain similar stereotypes of non-Caucasian ethnicities." Link to "Caucasian race", or simply write white instead? The term is not widely used outside the US, it seems.
 * I agree with this one; use of "Caucasian" to mean white is a primarily American practice. To me a "Caucasian" is somebody from the Caucasus. I'd put "white" instead —Cliftonian <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">(talk)</b></b> 05:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps worth a mention it is one of the few Tintin albums never made into a film/TV episode? FunkMonk (talk) 05:09, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe it was actually the only Tintin book that was not turned into a TV episode. <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">—<b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">Cliftonian</b> <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">(talk)</b></b> 05:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Soviets and Alph-Art (obviously) weren't either. FunkMonk (talk) 05:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, you're right. The Congo was the only Tintin book in colour that was not produced for TV. <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">—<b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">Cliftonian</b> <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">(talk)</b></b> 05:49, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Trouble would be finding a source that specifically states this, or is there a way to get around it? FunkMonk (talk) 05:55, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I tried to find something and couldn't. I think it would be enough just to do as you said originally and say it was one of the few not made for TV. Incidentally, I found this feature interesting. <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">—<b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">Cliftonian</b> <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">(talk)</b></b> 06:18, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Heheh, nice. Around here, they sell tiny Tintin figures for huge sums of money. "Hand painted" for sure, but I bet these are a lot cheaper, and a lot more work gone into making them. FunkMonk (talk) 07:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello there FunkMonk, and thank you for commenting. In regard to the singular quote from the book in the synopsis, I included it so as to give an example of the sort of patronising attitude towards the Congolese that is exhibited throughout the comic. I can understand the argument that it is arbitrary, but I do feel that it has value for the reader. 2) As for "tarantara, tarantaboom", I think it refers to the Abbé making a big scene out of his views on the issue of colonialism in the Congo, but I am not entirely sure. 3) I'm just going by what the source said here, and it stipulates "Congo"; which I assume refers to his discovery of the area that we now call "the Congo" (and not the area of the historical Kingdom of Kongo, which is of course in modern Angola). 4) the first version, presumably. I will make that clearer in the text. 5) In relation to the earlier Adventures of Tintin (i.e. Tintin in the Land of the Soviets). Again, I shall try and make that clearer. 6) Very good point, I shall make the correction there. 7) Very well, "white" it is. 8) The problem is in finding a reference that actually states that; if we have one, then of course I shall use it, but unfortunately I am unaware of one. Kind regards, Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixes look nice. If "tarantara, tarantaraboom" means nothing to any of us, perhaps it won't mean anything to the average English speaking reader? In that case, seems it could be cut without losing anything. But perhaps someone else can chime in? FunkMonk (talk) 18:01, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I presumed it was supposed to be an onomatopoeic fanfare of trumpets, with a bass drum at the end. <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">—<b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">Cliftonian</b> <b style="color:white; background:darkgreen">(talk)</b></b> 01:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Support - Nice article, hope there will be more like it. The issues I raised that could be fixed have been fixed. The remaining are mainly due to the sources themselves being unclear, which is not Midnightblueowl's problem. FunkMonk (talk) 19:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * FN19: page formatting
 * Corrected. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * FN28: suggest using loc/at parameter instead of page
 * I've placed "loc/at" as the parameter, but now it doesn't state "inset" at all ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that should be either "loc" or "at", depending on which the template you're using recognizes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, "loc" works just fine. Thanks Nikkimaria! Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Why include location for Daily Mail and not Telegraph?
 * Corrected, Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Dead link
 * Removed. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ISBN for Goddin?
 * The ISBN is already there ? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Mail & Guardian should be italicized
 * Corrected, Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Should be Johns Hopkins not John Hopkins. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Corrected! Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.