Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tintin in the Land of the Soviets/archive4


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 00:36, 23 July 2013 (UTC).

Tintin in the Land of the Soviets

 * Nominator(s): User:Prhartcom and Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

We are nominating this for featured article because we feel that in its current stage, it fits all of the required criteria, and would make a great addition to Wikipedia's FA collection. It is currently a GA status article, and though it has failed FA reviews in the past – most recently in November 2011 – it has undergone a lot of recent reform and improvement from ourselves and User:Curly Turkey. It would be really appreciated if our peers here at Wikipedia could give it a look and let us know what they think. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:46, 4 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Two weeks later, and no takers yet. —Prhartcom   (talk)  21:15, 18 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support: for what it's worth, I think it certainly ticks the right boxes. Some minor grammatical points perhaps, but certainly seems neutral, comprehensive and well-referenced... ---Brigade Piron (talk) 22:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Support, with the disclaimer that I did quite a bit of copyediting on this a while back, and fought a mighty battle with the primary authors on the lead. I'd like to see some of the writing a bit more tight & concise, but I think we've come to see that as a philosophical difference; I don't see it as actually problematic.
 * Some additional comments (that won't affect my support):
 * Not entirely necessary, but it would be nice if there were more images. For example, something like File:Benoit Peeters 20100329 Salon du livre de Paris 3.jpg might be nice in the "Critical reception" section, as Peeters is a prominent Tintin expert, and a paragraph is devoted to his criticism of the book.
 * I used to use |indent=yes a lot for reference sections until I found out it breaks for some readers. Removing that parameter and replacing the colons with asterisks would make it slightly more accessible.
 * A would be nice in "External links".
 * ——— Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)


 * All good suggestions, all applied. —Prhartcom   (talk)  15:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, but wouldn't it be better if the caption to the Peeters photo tied in with the text? For example: "Hergé biographer Benoît Peeters considered the book to be a lackluster debut for Tintin." or "Hergé biographer Benoît Peeters thought In the Land of the Soviets to be "joyously bizarre", but was critical of its opening sequences." or somesuch.  And don't forget the circumflex in "Benoît".  Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * CT, when you're right, you're right. Suggestion and correction applied.  —Prhartcom   (talk)  20:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Image check


 * File:Lenin-Trotsky 1920-05-20 Sverdlov Square (original).jpg doesn't have source or author information. I did a quick Google search, and haven't been able to find this information myself.  I've left a message on the uploader's talk page.  If nothing comes of it, I'm sure there is no lack of appropriate photos from the era that could replace it.  Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No lack indeed.
 * Category:Lenin speaking at a meeting in Sverdlov Square in Moscow on 5 May 1920
 * I don't believe there's an issue using this image in this article (I believe it's in the public domain). Cheers. —Prhartcom   (talk)  20:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt it is. I did, however, come along recent doctored versions of the photograph—one was doctored just to show how easy it was for the Soviets to remove Trotstky.  These versions could be under copyright.  The uploader has let me know that they don't remember where they got this image, so it looks like a source will not be provided.  Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:21, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry to chip in here, but I've seen this image numerous times in history text books. The versions of the photos which cut out Trotsky were made during the early years of the Stalin regime, thus also out of copyright...---Brigade Piron (talk) 07:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * As I've said already, I don't doubt it. Last I checked, though, we cite our sources here, and don't just take people's word for it.  "Everyone knows" that the US Declaration of Independence was adopted on July 4, 1776, but we wouldn't let an editor get away without providing a source.  Further, "I believe it's in the public domain" doesn't mean it is—Europeans don't abide by the 1923 rule; and textbooks publish plenty of photographs that are under copyright, so it doesn't really matter in how many textbooks you've seen it.  Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Curly Turkey, thank-you for your comments. We're all trying to remain polite and respectful during this review.  You have been very helpful as you often are by spotting issues that many editors don't normally see, such as the examples above, and for this you are valuable and I personally am grateful. This same eye has occasionally spotted things that are not issues and their observance and discussion does not expend our energy efficiently.  I pray that you please take a moment and consider that this may be the case.  I say this with the greatest respect.  I am here solely to improve the article and to have fun along the way.  If you could please agree to drop the issue you are currently pursuing as we could then use our energy on other matters.  If you wish, you may take it offline.  Cheers.   —Prhartcom   (talk)  23:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Prhartcom, I'm baffled by your response. The Featured article criteria clearly requires (point #3) that "[i]mages included follow the image use policy".  The Image use policy, in the Requirements section, states: "Always specify on the description page where the image came from (the origin, sometimes called its "source") and information on how this could be verified."  In bold, no less.  I hope it's not being suggested that it's impolite or disrespectful to point this out.  Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope so too. Curly is quite right to point out the FAC requirement to follow WP image policy. The fact that this is a commonly reproduced picture doesn't exempt it from that policy. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I have dealt with the image in question; hopefully this problem should be sorted now. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments. Some link suggestions, and nitpicky comments about the prose and MoS. Sasata (talk) 08:19, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * link serialized ✅
 * I'd consider mentioning that the OGPU is the Soviet Secret Police in the lead, to save the reader a click away ✅
 * "En route to Moscow, an agent of the Soviet secret police, the OGPU, sabotages the train; declaring the reporter to be a "dirty little bourgeois"." semicolon does not work here ✅
 * "Hot on his trail," – idiomatic expressions should probably be avoided in encyclopaedic language; perhaps "Following closely,"? ✅
 * ""disappear... accidentally"." ellipses should be spaced (sometimes with non-break spaces, per WP:ELLIPSES) ✅
 * link propaganda, firing squad ✅
 * "and that the government plans to "organise an expedition against the kulaks, the rich peasants, and force them at gunpoint to give us their corn."" to whom is this quote attributed? The government? A person in the government? (Midnightblueowl, please see to this one. —Prhartcom   (talk) )
 * The quote is actually provided by a Bolshevik character in the comic. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * "A Bolshevik then captures him and informs him, "You're in the hideout where Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin have collected together wealth stolen from the people!"" not sure if it would be better just to paraphrase this information, rather than having it as a quote. (Midnightblueowl, please see to this one. —Prhartcom   (talk) )
 * I like the way that the quote illustrates the manner in which Hergé presents the Bolsheviks, but am happy to paraphrase it also. Midnightblueowl (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * "The plane crashes, but Tintin fashions a new propeller from a tree using a penknife, and continues to Berlin, where he drunkenly passes out." the abrupt turn of events in sentence is jarring and does not flow well. The close proximity of these events has me wondering if Tintin's drunken stupor has to do with him making a propellor with the pen knife? ✅
 * "The last OGPU agent attempts to kidnap Tintin, but this attempt is foiled, leaving him threatening, "We'll blow up all the capitals of Europe with dynamite!"" It's not clear whether the "him" refers to Tintin or the OGPU agent ✅
 * overall, I'm underwhelmed with the plot synopsis and wonder if it could be made to sound more elegant/professional with some careful prose tweaks ...
 * link Anti-socialist ✅
 * "newspaper's sport staff which told" which->that ❌ (I think you've got this one wrong, as "that" should be used only for a restrictive clause. It did need a comma before the "which", though.)
 * "Hergé also had experience producing anti-communist propaganda, having produced" producing … produced ✅
 * Le Sifflet– worth a redlink? ❌
 * I don't think United States is a high-quality link here ❌ (You may be right and if others think so we will concede, but the "United States" is a link just as the "Soviet Union" is a link and the first mention of every country Tintin travels to is a link.)
 * "and since childhood had been horrified by" his childhood? ✅
 * "Hergé did not have the time to visit the Soviet Union or to analyse all available published information about it." The latter part of the sentence seems self-evident … I image that a lifetime wouldn't suffice to analyse all available published information about the Soviet Union, even in 1928. ✅ (We meant "any" not "all". Good catch.)
 * link consul, syndicated ✅
 * link Cœurs vaillants (check the spelling with ligature too), L'écho illustré (no capitals for this one?) ❌ (You want us to link to the French Wikipeida? No.)
 * You might want to check out ill. fr will give you, which makes it clear that the link is to fr.wikipedia—and as soon as anyone creates the page on en.wikipedia, the external link automatically will disappear, so you don't have to bother with cleanup.  Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * That is interesting, thanks for introducing a nice template. My preference would be to not link to this article on the French Wikipedia about a historical newspaper. I read their article and it makes a few bold claims that are accompanied by no cited references whatsoever. —Prhartcom   (talk)  06:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * "from 1932 on." on->onward? ✅
 * "Wallez recognised the continued commercial viability of the story, in September 1930 publishing it in book form through the Brussels-based Éditions du Petit Vingtième at a print-run of 10,000, each sold at twenty francs." grammar needs fixing; also, link print-run; does it need hyphenation? ✅ (Good catch with the hyphenation.)
 * link rigging elections ✅
 * "it had been produced by Graham Strong" why "had been" instead of "was"? ✅
 * please check the ending punctuation of the captions–some are not full sentences and so do not require a period, per MOS:CAPTION ✅


 * Sasata, thank-you for the good suggestions! Please indicate your support.  —Prhartcom   (talk)  18:16, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Per the FAC instructions, pls refrain in future from marking points with ✅ or ❌ . Also pls don't solicit people for support, particularly an experienced reviewer like Sasata, who can indicate so (or otherwise) when ready. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Support  : The links Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Brussels, Tom McCarthy, and State Political Directorate are repeated in the body text. Other than that it is an interesting read and all web based links appear to be archived. Was there any kind of significant Soviet reception? Maybe I'm missing it in the article. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 19:50, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I am unaware of the Soviet reception to Tintin (Midnightblueowl?). Checked and corrected each link, thanks for your input, Darkwarriorblake. —Prhartcom   (talk)  21:07, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing regarding the comic's reception in the USSR in any of the English-language Tintinological books, unfortunately. I suspect that very few individuals – if anyone – in Stalin's Soviet Union, ever even got hold of a copy. Midnightblueowl (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Delegate note -- FTR, completed a source review and pretty well everything appeared in order. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.