Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tiruchirappalli/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 11:07, 24 December 2011.

Tiruchirappalli

 * Nominator(s): Ravi My Tea Kadai  06:16, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because this was rated a good article in May 2011. Since then, this article has undergone an extensive copy-edit and cleanup. The article was nominated for a peer-review and suggestions have been implemented. I feel that the article is good enough for an FA now. Ravi My Tea Kadai 06:16, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments

The article is wide in terms of coverage, leaving the below IMO. S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 23:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt
 * History
 * 1) Trichy was once planned to be the second capital of TamilNadu - references here .  There are voices now(refer Junior Vikatan) to the same now.
 * Gyan Publishing House has the infamous reputation of publishing books which contain stuff copied from Wikipedia. See here. This raises doubts about its reliability- Ravi My Tea Kadai 02:06, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There are quite a few more- S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 05:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt
 * There are no details in the article on what happened to the proposal. I am also not able to find any source regarding this on Google Books. As of now, I am adding the information to History of Tiruchirappalli article.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 14:40, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The etymology of 'Tiru Sina Puram' is by fury of Lord Siva towards Woraiyur - stalapuranam of Thayumnavar points to that(dont have online references)
 * Sources are needed- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Trichy was associated with Tipu Sultan and Hyder Ali - references here  and
 * Added the same- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) East bouleward and west bouleward are demarcations of the old fort that existed.  Now only the partial portions remain - that is the main guard gate - partial references here
 * The source does not mention that. All that the book proves is that there exists a place called West Boulevard in Trichy.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Also mention of Teppakulam(which is also historic) is missing.
 * Geography and climate
 * 1) "The alluvial soil is conducible for agriculture and crops such as ragi" - isnt this generic? The staple crop is paddy, sugarcane followed by banana.
 * The sources mention only ragi and cholam.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) "The climate of Tiruchirappalli is favourable and healthy. " - relative term.
 * 2) " the temples to the north " - whcih ones? There are famed temples all around.  Temples with large visitors like Vekkali Amman, Panchavaranswamy temple and nachiar koil are right in Woraiyur.  North is too generic.
 * Again based on what the sources say. The book says that the temples are located in the northern part of Tiruchi.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Most of the famous temples are located only in the north. When you say Trichy, the first thing that comes into mind is Rockfort followed by Srirangam, Thiruvanaikaval and Samayapuram to some extent. Many People don't know about Nachiyar Kovil, Panchavarnaswami Temple. Even Vekkali Amman Temple is only known in places loacted in and around Trichy. These temples aren't as famous as Rockfort and Srirangam. Also, Uraiyur isn't the western extreme of the city. &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 04:11, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) is there a way to get the latest map - given that directional references are made?
 * I've explained in the peer review why it is not possible.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 18:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Lower anaicut is not in Trichy
 * Removed &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 05:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) "The Jambukeswarar Temple at Thiruvanaikkaval and the Erumbeeswarar Temple, both date from the time of the Medieval Cholas" - sentence is fragmented.
 * Demographics
 * 1) Best to have religion graph in terms of population data as in Chennai
 * Reliable religionwise population data for Tiruchi is not available. I am waiting for the publication of 2011 census results.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 02:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) St Joseph College Church, Tiruchirappalli - there is no such name. The one referred is Our Lady of Lourdes Church, Tiruchirapalli
 * Our Lady of Lourdes Church is also known as St Joseph College Church. See - Ravi My Tea Kadai 02:13, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I have posted in the page itself - there can nothing more reliable than the college website itself - . The church is in the college campus - even in the reference, the original name is given.  S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 05:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt
 * Art, society and Culture
 * 1) The festivals can be split into festival of land - like Adi perukku/Vaikunta ekadesi and generic festivals
 * 2) Thayumanaswami is one level below Uchipillayar - it takes some 60-70 steps more
 * Transport
 * 1) "the Chathram Bus Stand and the Central Bus Station,[47] both situated close to each other" - relative. They are 5 kms apart.
 * 2) "There are frequent trains to Chennai, Madurai, Chidambaram, Bangalore, Rameswaram, Mangalore, Tirupathi, Kolkata, Guwahati and Cochin." - ? Check this -  or.
 * 3) "Tiruchirappalli has rail connectivity with most important cities and towns in India" - generic again. There are no direct trains to even some of the southindian cities.
 * Lack of direct connectivity doesn't mean the city lacks connectivity. &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 10:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You give a source which contains a long list of cities to which trains are available from trichy and the next point you make is that trichy lacks rail connectivity. Aren't these two contradictory?- Ravi My Tea Kadai 11:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Education
 * 1) "There are also 35 engineering colleges in the city."  Leaving 2, all of them are in the outskirts.
 * Reworded according to the source. &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 10:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Bishop heber school and st joseph school are the oldest >150 years.  Mention can be added.
 * Economy
 * 1) "The economy of Tiruchirappalli is mainly industrial." - in what terms? Check census data - it is still agrarian.
 * Which data are you talking about. Nearly three-fourths of the District's urban population lives in Trichy UA. &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 10:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Think most of the explanation given above rely fully upon some sources and miss local knowledge - like temples and crop(anyone knows that in cauvery delta staple crop is paddy) - and .  Srirangam, Tiruvanaikoil and samayapuram are in the north of the city.  Vayalur, Vekkali amman koil garner equal crowd too and there are lot of historic temples in north east and north west.  Generic statements in most cases can be easily avoided - like transport - "well-connected" would do.  "Well connected to all major cities in India" - if you take indirect connectivity, any city would be well connected.  Please refer to the district page - UA takes lot of villages into account.  The major industries like bhel, happ, trichy dist and their allied 70-80 industries may employ a max of 1 lakh; all others and service sector another 0.5 lakhs? Even if employed personnel is held at 25%, we are short.  Check this - . S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 00:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt
 * Unfortunately, we cannot do anything about that. Of course, you can create a blog and put all the stuff you know in it. Otherwise, if we are to rely on people on their word you might even come across someone who might say - "I've lived Tiruchi all my life and I know the city pretty well. It is one of the biggest cities in the world".  As for the sources you've mentioned (connected with paddy cultivation), do they exclusively refer to Tiruchi or only the Cauvery Delta?- Ravi My Tea Kadai  14:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The sources you have provided pertain to Tiruchi district which also includes Manapparai and Thuraiyur.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 17:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I have been insisting on local knowledge just not to miss coverage, while i fully agree that locals are not all knowledgable, neither unreferenced contents can be posted. Give a look at this - Maris is quoted as Morris, Our lady of Lourdes as St Joseph college church, missing mention of Teppakulam & main guard gate,chatram bustand-central busstand are close to each other, paddy not the primary crop - local knowledge will see these blatant mistakes off and essentially we have to agree that the tourist references may be wrong or may have typos.  Trichy is defintely a rice-bowl; two largest sources of water akandakaveri(this mention can also be added as the largest width of the river is only in trichy) and kollidam is here.  The irrigation and agriculture pattern is provided in the above references.  Do simple searches on Lalgudi or Manachanallur -   and .  Also on history of boulevard and MG gate - .  There are hundreds of references, just that we need the lead and expand on these - i did a cursory search and landed with so many.  I am simply providing the lead here and have provided 10 relevant references.  Also i have been always insisting on not getting things personal - you and I are here to make things better for this forum.  Statements like "you can create blog" is highly incongrous and uncalled for. S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 22:35, 21 December 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt


 * Well, I was not making any personal statements here. I only insist that you provide references. Else it is difficult to incorporate them into the article. We had, in fact, implemented a couple of your suggestions. It is unfortunate that you find it personal. Thanks for the links you've provided. We will try to add them.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 14:28, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The data you have provided was designed according to the 2001 census and it's been more than a decade now. Things have changed a lot. According to Census authorities an urban area is a one which has:
 * Atleast 75 percent of the male main working population engaged in non-agricultural pursuits. In that case agriculture is not the major occupation for most of the people living in urban areas. We cannot make any rough estimates like what you did above even if they are true. We need reliable sources. Now coming to Indirect connectivity, What I meant was Trichy is connected to most of the major cities, which means Trichy need not be the source station. Most of the trains from the south pass through Trichy. &mdash; Commander (Ping me) 05:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Nikkimaria (talk) 21:57, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:OVERLINK
 * This script should come in handy. Joyson Prabhu  Holla at me!   15:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * - Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 17:24, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing quite a few primary and tertiary sources, quite a few promotional/commercial sources, and quite a few very old sources, which combined makes me concerned about overall sourcing quality.
 * Can you please list the primary and tertiary sources used? And why should we not use old sources? At least three of the "old" books used here are written by expert historians for whom there are Wikipedia articles. Atleast, you might find that the sourcing is better than good many FAs in Wikipedia.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 14:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * My advice would be to try to minimize the number of old sources you are using. As such, try to research if updated information exists on historical info. Also, the sourcing depends on the context. Regarding something which continues to the present day and is verifiable now, it would be much better if new books be used instead. Joyson Prabhu  Holla at me!   15:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already given a more-than-convincing reply at the peer review as to why "old" sources have been used in this article. There are no alternate reliable newly-published secondary sources on the subject. Besides, there are other FAs like Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760) which utilize a lot of old books and primary sources.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 16:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Citation formatting should be more consistent - some are missing publishers, ranges need dashes, print sources need page numbers, etc
 * Mixture of English variations - see WP:ENGVAR
 * Article needs a thorough copyediting for grammar, clarity and flow. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:57, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose inappropriate sourcing basis; poor quality of citations. For example: historical etymology cited against "Falling Grain genomics Inc".  For example: a reliance on subcontinental history from the 1920s, without any modern sources on history consulted (outdated, and not a full historiographical sampling, per WP:HISTRS).  In relation to the poor quality of citations, compare the quality on website references to the bibliographical section (where there is at least one missing space in a title that I can observe).  Important article to promote to FA.  Not promotable in this state. Fifelfoo (talk) 22:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In addition, comparing this article to the very well cited Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760) makes this article look ridiculous. Mysore relies on sources published after 1970 for its history. Fifelfoo (talk) 23:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Did B. L. Rice and C. Hayavadana Rao live after 1970? Never knew that.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 01:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your crude and trite sarcasm; this is not an effective way to fix the issues in this FAC before it is archived. You ignore 16 sources from the bibliography of Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760) that were published after 1970.  16:5 in in Mysore: modern scholarship predominates (and I'm being kind by not considering Rice's works to be issues of volumes in a single work).  There is a preponderance of modern works, a preponderance of modern historiography, and a preponderance of works that allow the proper historical and historiographical contextualisation of claims from Rice and Rao.  Moreover, the editor who brought Mysore to FAC had a mastery over the domain, as demonstrated by the comprehensiveness of the literature reviewed for history in Mysore.  None of these features of a FA are present in the article present for review at the moment. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I'll try to fix them. :-) I just specified "Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760)" as an example of an article where old sources were used. And I wanted to convey that K. A. Nilakanta Sastri is as much reliable as B. L. Rice.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 02:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, there have been a couple of "Oppose" votes on this article by people who reason that the article has "old" sources. I've persistently explained here my reason for adding "old" sources even providing a link to the discussion in the peer-review page where the issue was first brought up. But I observe that people continue to vote "Oppose" in this FAN on the basis of "old and outdated sources", thereby ignoring my reasoning completely. I am reproducing my statement on the peer-review page

* Hemingway 1907.- The Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition article on "Tiruchirappalli" is actually based on this. * Yule, Sir Henry; Burnell, Arthur Coke (1903). - Used as primary source in the article. * Sastri, K. A. Nilakanta (2000) [1935] - Source has been used in Chola Dynasty, History of Tamil Nadu, Raja Raja Chola I, Rajendra Chola I, Thanjavur * Sathianathaier, R. (1924) - Source has been used in Madurai Nayak Dynasty, Thirumalai Nayak * Caldwell, Robert (1881) - Source has been used in Kayalpatnam, Tirunelveli, Muhammed Yusuf Khan, Puli Thevar, Mangalorean regionalism * R. Burn, J. S. Cotton, ed (1908) - Imperial Gazetteer of India (The book has an article) * Moore, Lewis (1878). * Aiyangar, S. Krishnaswami (1921) - Source has been used in Madurai Sultanate, Jalaluddin Ahsan Khan, History of Tamil Nadu * Subramanian, K. R. (1928). etc - Source has been used in Thanjavur Maratha kingdom, History of Thanjavur, Kumbakonam, First Anglo-Mysore War.

Most of the authors whose books you considered "obsolete" are legendary historians. Some of the books you've mentioned such as The Cholas by Nilakanta Sastri (which is used in two featured articles and a B-class article), Sathianathaier's History of the Madurai Nayaks and Subramanian's The Maratha Rajas of Tanjore (used in a GA) are the best available books on the respective subjects. They form a part of the academic curriculum taught in graduate and post-graduate courses. And then, most of these old sources are used only in the "History" and "Geography" sections (of course, in eighty years you won't be able to see Tiruchi being transplanted to San Francisco). The rest of the sections rely almost entirely on contemporary sources.

I welcome any judgement on the validity on my reasoning but if any person continues to vote "Oppose" giving the reason as "Old sources" despite the explanation I've provided, I may have to conclude that the vote is an expression of prejudice against me.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 14:54, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not good. I read through the comments with a view to maybe reviewing, but I don't like the last comment. Assume good faith <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:18, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, what did you not like. :( I'm sorry but I found ppl jumping to conclusion without listening to what I'm trying to say.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 15:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion that an oppose is an expression of prejudice against you is extremely distasteful. I can't speak for Fifelfoo, but I don't know you from Adam, and even if I did I don't !vote at FAC based on the nominator, but only on the merits of the article itself. In terms of your argument, let me try to explain where you're going wrong. You suggest that because these are "legendary historians" and part of a university curriculum they should be perfectly acceptable. Consider some examples: Galen, a legendary physician, suggested that human personality was based on "humours" in the body; Albert Einstein's work is extensively studied in university science programs, but recent scientific developments have disproved some of his theories. History as a field does not evolve as quickly as the sciences, but very old sources become outdated just the same. In addition, relying only on old sources fails to fulfill the requirement for comprehensiveness in sourcing. Furthermore, I would point out that that was not the only concern I have about this article. In sum, WP:AGF - not everyone who disagrees with you is out to get you. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:49, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I'm looking into them.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 02:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (mainly 1a): Apart from the sources questions there are problems with the prose, and other more general issues. I have only been through the lead and first two sections, and have identified the following:-
 * Lead


 * General point: the lead should summarise the whole article. I see several section headings that are not mentioned in the lead (climate, demographics, transport etc). The present short lead could easily be expanded to touch on these aspects, if only by the addition of a few short phrases.
 * Insert comma after "the Kaveri"
 * "forming the island" → "to form the island"
 * The words "at different times" should be inserted after "has been ruled", rather than being stuck ambiguously at the end of the sentence.
 * "...Tiruchirappalli. Tiruchirappalli..." should be avoided.
 * Etymology


 * "believed by some..." Some who? Historians? Be a little more explicit.
 * "to have been derived from..." → "to derive from"
 * "In an inscription of the sixteenth century..." What form does this inscription take, i.e. where is it inscribed? Also you need to be consistent re "sixteenth century" and, elsewhere, "13th".
 * I suggest in this sentence you place either a full stop or semicolon after "in Tamil", and delete the "and". You should also say who Henry Yule and Arthur Coke Burnell were - scholars, historians, or whatever is most appropriate.
 * History


 * Write "second", not "2nd" per MOS (see also "3rd", "6th" etc. Numbers are OK for values of 10, so "13th" is all right.))
 * "Sir William Larke, Director of the British Iron and Steel Federation, stated..." When and where did he state this?
 * Boxed quotations should not be inserted into the text in this way. There is no obvious reason for treating this quotation in this way; you should incorporate it into the general prose.
 * On the other hand, you might consider whether the quotation is worth keeping at all; perhaps a paraphrase would be better? The quotation's meaning is unclear (what is "wootz"? Why is Sir Henry using American spelling? Also, wikilinks should not be included within quotes).
 * "identified by some..."?
 * Is there a less disruptive method of deploying citations than the following: "It served as the capital of the Madurai Nayak kingdom from 1616[22][23] to 1634[24][25] and from 1665"[26][27] to 1736"?
 * The shifting of the capita from Madurai to Trichy in 1616 is mentioned in a different page of the book and the restoration of Tiruchi as the capital is mentioned in a different page. How do I mention them?- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 02:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "...but both of these attacks were repelled by the British". It would be useful to know, by means of a short explanatory sentence, when/how the British came on the scene.
 * "A third attempt by Tipu Sultan, son of Hyder Ali in 1793 ended in a stalemate". There should be commas after "attempt" and "1793". Also, perhaps "attempt" should be amplified.
 * "At the end of the Second Carnatic War, the kingdom was eventually restored..." The word "eventually" is redundant
 * "The district of Trichinopoly was constituted in 1801..." Constituted by whom?
 * "the second largest city in Madras Presidency..." You have not explaine dhow it became part of the Madras Presidency, or what the Madras Presidency was.
 * Comma missing after "grew further"
 * Give the year of India's independence.

The rest of the article requires an equally detailed prose check. Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'll look into them this weekend. Thanks a lot for your valuable suggestions.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 02:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Apart from the lead, all the other listed copyedit issues have been fixed.- Ravi <sub style="color:red; font-family:Monotype Corsiva;">My Tea Kadai 12:23, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.