Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tragic Kingdom/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 03:25, 13 January 2009.

Tragic Kingdom

 * Nominator(s): Tez kag 72 and Escape Artist SwyerTalkContributions

I'm nominating this article for featured article because Escape Artist Swyer and I worked a long time to get it to GA status, then had it peer reviewed. When all concerns were addressed, we put it up at FAC. Unfortunately, it was not promoted, most likely because of a lack of "support" votes due to there having been so many FACs listed at the time. We have decided that the best thing to do is to nominate it again, since the number of FACs has thinned out a bit. Tez kag 72 14:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - There doesn't seem to be any critical commentary regarding the style or content of "Spiderwebs", so that audio sample seems superfluous. To address this, you should either add that commentary or remove/replace the sample. (ESkog)(Talk) 17:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How about now? Tez kag 72 18:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not too bad. My concern, though, is that we don't need the song sample for that; the text you just added is great, but it's not clear what the sample adds to that discussion. It would be better if you could (1) explain what that sample shows about the style of the album, or (2) select a sample which is more suitable for explaining this style. (ESkog)(Talk) 18:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there one of "Just a Girl"? The Spiderwebs one has been there for a while, but Just a Girl was a more famous song. Tez kag 72 18:34, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:NFCC . --Efe (talk) 13:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So I should just remove it? Tez kag 72 15:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't really need two samples so I just kept "Don't Speak". -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 15:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Citation formatting is inconsistent, sometimes Retrieved on, other times retrieved on. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 02:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What does that mean? Tez kag 72 15:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Capitalisation. I'll look over when I have some time. -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 15:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no such incidents. Tez kag 72 16:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Currently the lead is completely insufficient IMHO. For example, the lead is 3 paragraphs long, the middle paragraph is completely dedicated to information unrelated to this album. In essence, the middle paragraph is a "background" section, yet the actually "background" section isn't that big. The lead places too much detail on the background details, which aren't even a sizable portion of the article body. I haven't moved beyond the lead yet, but that really does need sorting. The lead needs to be a summary of the article, each section of the article. — Realist  2  16:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How about now? I shortened it and now it focuses more on after the album's release. Tez kag 72 17:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The tour information should come at the end of the lead, like it does in the article body. The second paragraph is disjointed, first it discusses critical reception, then commercial reception, then Grammy awards (a critical aspect). I still feel the lead should be 3 paragraphs for an article of this size, but it's OK. I hope you didn't think I was saying the lead was too long, sorry if that was the impression. It wasn't too long, rather, it wasn't in proportion to the article body. I'm watchlisting the page BTW. — Realist  2  17:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've made a couple of changes to the lead, which is now three paragraphs.-- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 20:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot better now. I'm not supporting or opposing, I haven't looked at the remainder of the article. Hopefully I'll get time to. — Realist  2  20:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As of this version of the article, current ref #43 (chart surfer) is unreliable. Also, with regards to the formatting of the references. You appear to be Wikilinking the publication once? What is the pattern here? Rolling Stone is Wikilinked twice (Current ref #9 and #44). With regard to the professional reviews of the infobox, there is no form of linkage or sourcing to the favorable reviews in the Los Angeles Times or Village Voice. I know it's sourced in the article content, but would you mind duplicating the source into the infobox as well. Looking at this version of the article, what is that date for ref #8 and #10? Is that a retrieve date or a publication date? If it's a retrieve date label it as such. If it's a publication date then put brackets around it and move it closer to the beginning. I wasn't sure. Please do the same for any others. — Realist  2  03:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is the Chart Surfer unreliable? Tez kag 72 14:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The folks over at Record charts say it's reliable, which is good enough for me. I've struck that. :-) — Realist  2  17:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and neither of the reviews in question are online, as far as I could see. Tez kag 72 14:19, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They don't need to be, see Thriller (album) as an example. The melody maker review is offsite.
 * To address the final issue, I don't know how to add the dates to the "cite episode" templates. Tez kag 72 14:22, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment's by Realist2 (Section 2)
 * The third single was "Don't Speak", a ballad about the breakup of Stefani and Kanal's relationship. It peaked at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 Airplay,[20] but the song was not eligible to chart on the Billboard Hot 100 because no commercial single was released, which was a requirement at the time.[21] However, the song performed well on other Billboard charts[17][22][23]... - I think you should start off saying that it couldn't appear on the Billboard Hot 100, then go onto the "other Billboard charts", where you can mention the airplay chart info. It could be much tighter. The airplay chart is "[another] Billboard chart" after all. — Realist  2  18:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done...I think. I rearranged the wording order. How about now? Tez kag 72 22:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Great. — Realist  2  23:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on criterion 3 File:DontSpeak.ogg - There is no specific purpose of use for this clip. Note that the FUR for "No Doubt" and "Tragic Kingdom" are exactly the same. Please explain why the reader must hear this particular part of this particular song in relation to this article. The caption and the paragraph in the article about the song don't comment on the song's musical aspects at all (there is no critical commentary on the clip), so at this point I would suggest that this clip be deleted. Awadewit (talk) 15:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It was the most popular song from the album, and the text explains this. I'll look criterion 3 over, but it would be a shame to remove the only sound sample. Tez kag 72 15:43, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you say anything more about the piece, though? Note that at WP:NFC, it states "Music clips may be used to identify a musical style, group, or iconic piece of music when accompanied by appropriate sourced commentary and attributed to the copyright holder." - Does a reputable source say this piece is "iconic" in any way or representative of the band? (I agree it would be a shame not to have a clip, but we have to have a real reason to include one. Sadly, few bands have released music into the PD!) Awadewit (talk) 15:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I guess not. All the opposing so far for this seems to be stemming from the sound files. Would it be better if I just removed it? Would that help this article pass? That's my biggest concern. Tez kag 72 16:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, you should remove it, yes, especially if you have no sources that comment on the song itself. Awadewit (talk) 16:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There are; there just aren't any there that show its notability compared to other songs on the album. Tez kag 72 16:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I'm afraid it has to go. I feel your pain. Awadewit (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. What about the rest of the article? Tez kag 72 19:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've struck the oppose. I'm only reviewing the media content. Awadewit (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 15:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Support Comments from While there are probably a couple rough spots in the prose, the writing is generally good. I copy-edited the lead; feel free to revert or alter any of my changes. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ""wherever [Interscope] could get a deal on a studio," Please see WP:PUNC about logical punctuation; the comma is not part of the quote.
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "which is located in Anaheim, California"
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Disneyland - "The Magic Kingdom"" Use an em dash or spaced en dash.
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "The album cover features Gwen in the foreground and the rest of the band members standing in an orange grove in the background" Noun + -ing makes for a clumsy construction.
 * I don't see what's wrong with this, or how to make it better. Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "band members standing" is clumsy and ungrammatical. Try: "The album cover features Gwen in the foreground; the rest of the band members are standing in an orange grove in the background" or something similar.
 * How about now? Tez kag 72 00:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Composing the song began when Kanal was having a fight with Stefani," Eh? Do you mean, "The song's composistion..."?
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Finally, "Hey You!" was released as the seventh and final single from Tragic Kingdom, but it only charted in New Zealand." "Finally" is redundant.
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Trauma launched a street campaign targeting"-->Trauma launched a street campaign that targeted.
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "It eventually sold a total of sixteen million copies worldwide." This sentence uses the past tense, does the album not sell anymore?
 * "he stopped going to rehearsals"-->he stopped attending rehearsals
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Their independence attracted Interscope's attention and ensured that they would fund a third album." This sentence is ambiguous, did their independence ensure that they would fund a third album or Interscope's attention?
 * I don't think it seems ambiguous. It means the independence ensured that they would fund a third album. What should I do? Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, that is fine. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Most of the songs on Tragic Kingdom were written by lead vocalist Gwen Stefani, and were about her experiences in life, and those from No Doubt's previous album were written mainly by Eric Stefani, who left the group before Tragic Kingdom was recorded." Split this sentence in half. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Tez kag 72 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Tezkag, I noticed that you have replied, but I do not have any more time today, so my responses will have to wait for tomorrow. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's fine; just write down if you support or if there are more issues you feel need to be addressed. Tez kag 72 00:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "It was re-released on November 25, 2003 as a DVD as part of the box set Boom Box" "as a"-->on.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:04, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "No Doubt started to work on its second album in 1993"-->No Doubt began work on its second album in 1993
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "but it only charted in New Zealand."-->but it charted only in New Zealand.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Although it was a source of tension for the band, Gwen pushed for Eric to be included on the album cover, reasoning that although he had left the band, he had still contributed substantially to the album."-->Gwen pushed for Eric to be included on the album cover—a source of tension for the band—reasoning that although he had left the band, he had still contributed substantially to the album. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:07, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, give me about 8–12 hours and I will revisit. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:12, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments The structure needs work. I'd strongly recommened turning "Production" into its own section and moving the detail about singles into the "Release" section (as well as trimming it extensively; a lot of stuff should be reserved for the articles on the individual singles themselves). See Loveless (album), In Rainbows, and Blood Sugar Sex Magik for examples of well-written FA album articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 18:02, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Here's my responses:
 * Escape Artist Swyer already did the first thing. Tez kag 72 00:37, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you tell me what detail you mean? Tez kag 72 00:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed all the info about the songs except the charting info, and the fact that Don't Speak was "a ballad about Stefani and Kanal's breakup". Tez kag 72 00:47, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It might be best to just trim it down to the main singles chart listings (Hot 100, UK Singles chart), and leave the airplay charts to the articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There's also precious little about the music. Excluding the singles subsection, the music section is woefully short. can this be expanded? WesleyDodds (talk) 03:16, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Now here's a thought—should I put the info about the songs' composition (that I took out of the "singles" section) into the "music"? Tez kag 72 03:34, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, because it's about the writing and themes. There were a lot of songs about Gwen's relationship and breakup with Kanal and about being treated differently because she's female. -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 13:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Lief's a tad hectic at the mo but I can write up a bit about themes (with quotations, lyrics, etc) in, say, two or three days time. -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 21:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm developing it as well. Not ready yet. Tez kag 72 02:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose - This was a great read! It's not ready for FA, though.  The prose is rough and there is a frequent lack of clarity typically found when someone too close to the subject has done most of the writing and editing.  A thorough copyedit is needed by an outside party with a eye toward clarity.  Recommend withdrawing as I don't think this can be done quickly.  Some examples just from the lead and Background - I'll be happy to revisit after the copyedit.
 * The second paragraph of the lead doesn't mention the album name and the "It sold ..." could use it. As written, sounds like "it" is No Doubt.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "No Doubt embarked on a tour to promote the album, which was designed..." Unclear - the tour or the album was designed?
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "The album sold 30,000 copies; in the words of the program director of KROQ, a California radio station on which it was one of the band's driving ambitions to be played: 'It would take an act of God for this band to get on the radio.'" I don't really understand why these two statements are together. Why couldn't a band who sold 30,000 records get on the radio?  Maybe they couldn't get on KROQ, but surely they were getting radio play somewhere.
 * In the Background section, you introduce Eric Stefani without telling us who he is or his significance. Don't make us follow the link to find out.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tony Kanal's motivations for ending his relationship with Gwen Stefani are trivial to this article.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:16, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikilinking "recording studio" once is a bit much, twice is way too much.
 * I removed one; I couldn't find the second one. Tez kag 72 14:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Please no easter egg links (independently) that you have to click or hover over to see where it goes.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "... over three times as many as No Doubt." No, we don't need to point that out.
 * Done Tez kag 72 14:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Their independence attracted Interscope's attention and ensured that they would fund a third album." I'm not clear how their independence could perform either of these tasks.
 * -- Laser brain  (talk)  02:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, no source check. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 03:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What does that even mean? Tez kag 72 14:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

There are still ongoing questions. Please don't close it. Like, you never gave me a chance to respond to Laser_brain's comments. Tez kag 72 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.