Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Trait du Nord/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 13:11, 19 August 2012.

Trait du Nord

 * Nominator(s): Dana boomer (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC), User:Tsaag Valren

This article, on a rare and endangered French draft horse breed, has been a product of collaboration between User:Tsaag Valren (a user who has done amazing work on equine articles on the French WP and has been extremely helpful in the realm of French breeds on the English WP) and myself. Because the breed has a small population even in its own country, and is extremely rare outside of France, the majority of the sources are in French. The article went through a GA review a while ago, as well as a more recent peer review. I look forward to seeing your comments! Thanks in advance, Dana boomer (talk) 14:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Dana boomer. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * What is UFR?
 * Be consistent in how you notate multi-author works
 * FN33: italicization. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe I have addressed these. Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Support - (all comments addressed) looks like a comprehensive, well written article. Will try an indepth-check later:
 * "However", "also" - almost all "however"s and some "also"s are fluff. Please check and remove them, when the contrast or addition is self-evident.
 * I've removed most of the "however"s and several of the "also"s. Do you feel that more trimming is needed? - DB


 * "Enthusiast" - usage of opinion statements should be checked. Of the 4 "enthusiastic" observations 2 would be better attributed to veterinarians, breeders, farmers, scientists, authors, ...: "Members of the breed are described by enthusiasts as courageous and observant" (a basic breed feature certainly has a better source) and "Enthusiasts say that more alternatives to slaughter are needed and that the steady decline in breed numbers is proof that the breed is slowly dying." is probably true, but this kind of statement could use a more qualified source.
 * Comment -- Dana is lead editor, so I'll let her make the call on the actual edits, but when it comes to breed characteristics like "courage" or "good disposition" or "attractive," the problem here is that sometimes this IS the breed standard, fuzzy as it is, and even when it isn't there is no consensus as to what these terms mean other than horse people throw them around a lot and we all "know" what is intended, but no one puts down these specialized definitions in a dictionary very often (and it's worse when we are translating from other languages) -- so if it isn't NPOV to say a horse possesses a certain desired trait, then to say that "promoters or enthusiasts" of the breed describe is as having good traits x, y, and z is about as NPOV as we can get. Am I making any sense at all? --Montanabw
 * I've done some tweaking on this - has it helped? - DB


 * Lead "Developed in the [rich] ... grasslands .." ==> "fertile" as a more neutral and specific term.
 * "The Trait du Nord was also used extensively in mining through a greater part of the 19th century." ==> Not wrong, but main text has a complete duration until 1920 and even later.
 * Lead second para: repetitive phrasing (production, demand). Also confusing description of causes for breed's decline. Main text has mechanization as main cause with declining meat consumption as "contributing" factor. The lead para does not quite reflect this combination of causes.
 * "The breed is considered to be endangered [by the French government]" ==> couldn't find the government part in main text.
 * Dana: if you have trouble finding stats, the new Schleswig horse article has links to the FAO and some Europe-wide sites that might further verify this.  --MTBW
 * I've added a bit from one source that backs this up. I'll also look at a few other sources to see if I can find anything on the all-Europe or FAO point of view. - DB


 * "The breed currently has a high risk of inbreeding, due to the low number of breeding stallions,[ and is also at risk of extinction.]" ==> couldn't find the extinction part (in relation to inbreeding) in the main text, only as part of an enthusiast's opinion.
 * The numbers alone speak to the risk. When a breed organization (not known for wanting to mention bad news) says there's an inbreeding risk, you can take it to the bank!  --MTBW
 * I've tweaked this a bit in the article text and added some more from another source, but mainly what MTBW says is true. When birth numbers drop by more than half in under a decade, and there are less than 100 new horses born each year, the breed is at a significant risk for extinction. - DB


 * Uses - "The first horses was used in the ..." ==> grammar
 * "Breeders worked to produce a horse that fulfilled the needs of the mines" ==> needs rephrasing, something like "Breeders worked to adapt the breed to mining requirements." (the horse was already there, it needed slight improvements for mines).
 * Breed preservation - "The Trait du Nord is an endangered breed; the Haras de Compiègne (Compiegne Stud) ..." ==> Compiegne Stud is not mentioned before, please introduce the term ("private initiative" or similar?) at first usage. Also: check for other horsey terms throughout and add a brief descriptive phrase at first occurence. GermanJoe (talk) 12:10, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Finding "horsey terms" is something that I always have trouble with, because to me they're just normal language... I've addressed the Compiegne Stud thing (it was a national stud), but would appreciate it if you would point out any other terms you feel should be further explained. - DB
 * GermanJoe, I'll let Dana make the call on this article as I've done little work on it, but I want to let you know that the question of how to handle horse-related Technical terminology is one that WPEQ has been working with across the board in many articles, and we have a general consensus not to overdo it. You may want to see how we handled them in some of our major GAs, such as Thoroughbred.  If I may joke a bit here, I for one find it clunky to say [placing tongue in cheek here]  "a stallion (boy horse) was the sire (father) of a filly (baby girl horse) that is bay (a reddish-brown color with a black mane and tail plus black points on the legs and ear tips) and has four hooves (single-toed large digit with hornlike substance enclosing third phalanx [tiptoe])..." when the word can be wikilinked to an article or to Glossary of equestrian terms. However, if there is something particularly specific you are wondering about, feel free to flag it.  Montanabw (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Completely agree, basic terms with a wide usage need no further explanation (i didn't request that by the way :) ). Anyway, Dana boomer already adressed my point, so it's solved. GermanJoe (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, GermanJoe! I believe I have addressed everything above; anything that I didn't specifically reply to I simply addressed without comment. Please let me know if you have any further observations. Dana boomer (talk) 21:17, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for looking into the comments. The vast majority of the content was clear and comprehensive on the first go. I'll do another complete read soon. GermanJoe (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Updated vote, nice work. GermanJoe (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks so much! Dana boomer (talk) 14:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Images
 * File:Gros_trait_Hainaut.jpg needs page number and US PD tag
 * File:Medium_cheval.JPG needs US PD tag. I'm not sure the tag already present is correct - for an image created c. 1900, it's quite possible for the creator to have died less than 70 years ago. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks again! The first one should be good to go (I think I found and added the correct US tag). I've removed the second one and tagged it for deletion; I have replaced it with File:Bambou étalon de 2 ans.jpg. Dana boomer (talk) 19:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm really sorry that I haven't had a chance to respond to the above comments. I've had some family stuff come up and been online less than I expected this past week. I'll be back online full time Thursday evening at the latest, so I promise to respond to everything at that point or before. Thank you for your patience, and again, I apologize! Dana boomer (talk) 13:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Naming and registration: "According the French National Stud". Is "to" missing from this?
 * 1900s: As a publication, Official Journal should probably be italicized.
 * "the average weight of the Trait du Nord increase from between...". "increase" → "increased".
 * 1990s and today: 1990s really doesn't need the wikilink. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 02:27, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Giants! Stupid typos... All of the above should be good to go now. Dana boomer (talk) 19:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – All of my comments have been taken care of, and I think the article meets the criteria. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Support Comments from Jim just a few queries  Jimfbleak  -    talk to me?  12:09, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 *  it became an individual breed with —I'd prefer "was recognised", since it didn't physically change
 * more minor use —don't need "more"
 * The Trait du Nord is large... They are...—Change of subject from singular to plural
 *  high risk of inbreeding, due to the low number of breeding stallions, and is at risk—two risks in one sentence
 * French National Stud and Centre —The rest of the article is in AE
 * But "Centre" is part of an official name, so wouldn't it be incorrect to change it to AE? - DB
 * The ancestors of what is now the Belgian draft breeds, the Ardennes and the Trait du Nord were all the same—as what?
 *  breed for the farmers that conceived it,—bearing in mind that "conceived" has a literal use, best avoided in the same sentence as "breed"
 * One equine author—I don't think horses write books
 * slaughter are needed and that the steady decline in breed numbers is proof that the breed is slowly dying—again, an unfortunate use of "dying", which has a literal use too, in the same sentence as "slaughter"
 * Thanks Jim! I think I've addressed everything above, though I've only left a reply to one where I had a question. Dana boomer (talk) 01:13, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, it's Haras Nationaux et le Centre de Ressources génétiques, obviously using the the French word, centre. If it has an official English name using "Centre", fair enough, but I doubt that that is the case. You are not copying the French centre, you're translating it, so it should be translated into the AE used for the rest of the article. Anyway, not a big deal, I've changed to support above, and I'll leave you to decide on the appropriate spelling  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  06:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough; done. Thanks for the support! Dana boomer (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Delegate nitpick -- I don't suppose we could find another word for "minor" in the last sentence of the first paragraph, could we? It reads almost like a deliberate pun on "mining" in the same sentence... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I hadn't noticed that. Totally unintentional, I assure you :) Anyway, I exchanged it for "lesser", which I hope works... Dana boomer (talk) 15:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.