Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Trial by Jury


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:27, 29 June 2008.

Trial by Jury

 * Nominator(s): Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday, Ssilvers

This article is the latest concentrated drive by WP:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan. Over the last month or so, over two dozen published sources have been consulted - the lengthy bibliography section will give some idea of this; and all, or almost all, have been newly-consulted or reviewed during this drive (as well as a few others that, for whatever reason, never got cited, and thus aren't mentioned). While I can't guarantee that every source was used, I think that most people who knew about Gilbert and Sullivan would not find any substantial omissions, save, perhaps, that some of the sources, such as Arthur Jacobs, that we consulted late in the process didn't get cited as much as they would if they had been consulted earlier, simply due to overlap.

A great number of people have helped us in his process, and I apologise if I miss anyone out, but I'd like to thank User:Finetooth for an excellent MOS-check and copyedit, all our peer-reviewers, Marc Shepherd, who came back from retirement to assist us, and many, many others. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 21:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC) [Nomination went live on 06:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)]

Co-nomination: This is the first article on any of the famous Gilbert and Sullivan operas to be nominated for FA, and it will serve as a model for what the others might look like, so it is important to WP:G&S. I agree that the research for the article has been thorough, and I think the article is comprehensive. Shoemaker's Holdiday and I, as well as Marc Shepherd and some others who have assisted us are familiar with the literature about Gilbert and Sullivan and their operas. The prose in the article has been vetted by many readers, although I am sure that FA reviewers will have further helpful suggestions. In addition to the editors mentioned by Shoe, User:Yllosubmarine, User:Awadewit, User:Tim riley and many others have assisted us. We look forward to resolving any comments raised in the FA process. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC) [Nomination went live on 06:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)]


 * The old peer review is archived at Peer review/Trial by Jury/archive1‎. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 06:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * < Discussion moved to the talk page here for sorting. > Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Book questions and lots of WP:SPS "evidence" left for Ealdgyth on the talk page (I don't know book publishers as well as Ealdgyth does). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 22:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A summary of Marc Shepherd as a reliable source is at WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan/Marc Shepherd's Gilbert and Sullivan Discography. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:07, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Please don't run the author/publisher/other bibliographic information into the link title of web sources, it makes it hard to make out the title separate from the rest of the information. You do this with current res 83, 46, 93, 94, 95, 97, 98, 99, 61.
 * Otherwise sources look good, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the ones you listed, Ealdgyth, although I think you're mistaken about ref 93; The Gondoliers is part of the title, not the publisher. Was there something else wrong with it?  Let me know if there are additional ones.  María ( habla  con migo ) 16:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments Support: I don't think I helped with this one, but thank you nonetheless for the shoutout. :) This was a very interesting read and I can see how it would help frame the other G&S articles to come.  I'll be more than willing to support after a few things have been addressed:
 * The lead's timeline is confusing. The play's genesis is mentioned after its production history; shouldn't it be the other way around?  There's also no mention of the recordings or benefit productions.  Also, should it be mentioned in the lead when the productions stopped or when it was removed from the repertory?
 * I have tried to simplify the first two paragraphs of the Lead, although I think it is important to mention the date of the show's premiere at the top. I also mentioned the benefits and recordings and clarified that the piece is still being widely performed.  I also added a paragraph in the Production and Aftermath section to amplify the more "modern" information.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the added information and I can live with the wonky timeline. María ( habla con migo ) 12:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not a fan of specific quotes in the lead lest they be notable in their own right. I don't think Kurt Gänzl's quote ("probably the most successful British one-act operetta of all time") appears in the body, either, so maybe the sentiment could just be paraphrased?  "It's considered to probably be the most successful...?"
 * I moved Gänzl's quote down to the Production and Aftermath section, but I think that trying to say the same thing in the intro would be a controversial statement that requires citation. Perhaps the Lead is enthusiastic enough without it?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think so, but now it appears twice. :) María ( habla con migo ) 12:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Arthur Sullivan and W. S. Gilbert are mentioned by their full names in the lead, but from the very beginning in the body they're simply referred to as "Sullivan" and "Gilbert". Remember, pretend the lead doesn't exist and start with the basics.
 * OK, I linked them again below and used their full names again. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The section "Production and aftermath" may be a little misleading since it's about the initial production, yes? Should the section header be made more explicit?
 * Hmmm. It's about the initial production and then discusses how the piece became very popular and what happened to G&S afterwards.  What would you suggest?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You know, looking at it today, it doesn't bother me as much. If no one else finds issue with it, just disregard. María ( habla  con migo ) 12:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Analysis and innovations" is a huge section; is there any way to split it? Music innovations, production innovations?
 * LOL! This has gone back and forth a few times.  Shoe?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The best split is probably splitting off the last two paragraphs [the Trial-specific material] from the rest [which is a forward-looking discussion comparing the innovations with later G&S operas. I'm not sure about it, though, as it's hard to set out the scope, and, by necessity, the comparison with later works also discusses Trial a lot. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 11:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried several methods and finally decided on three subheadings. "How say you"?  -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the little things in life that get to me: in the refs, is it Stedman, pp. 120–21. (ref 9, only one example) with a period or Stedman, pp. 99–127 (4) without? Also, is it Bradley, p. 36, 38 (132) with "p." or Ainger, pp. 380–81 (119) with "pp."?
 * We agreed "without" the period. Also pp. if more than one are named.  Thanks!  I'll go thru and fix. -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Otherwise it looks great! I made a handful of very minor edits, mostly regarding punctuation. Hope you don't mind. María ( habla con migo ) 14:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Changed to Support. All changes were made or explained away to my satisfaction.  Great work, guys! María ( habla  con migo ) 20:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Gary King ( talk ) 20:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Excellent work. It's come a long way since I looked at it last.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:26, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support It's incredibly thorough and well-written. I'm impressed. MarianKroy (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Echoing Finetooth, I must say that I added one link to the article and made a couple suggestions during its nomination for "Good Article" status. MarianKroy (talk) 12:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. Very nicely done and a delight to work on. In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that I did some proofreading of the article, but it didn't need much. Finetooth (talk) 03:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support - I did a GA review of this article and it is definitely improved since then. The article has been reorganized a bit and it definitely flows better. Without a doubt, it is well-written, well-researched, and comprehensive. Here are my little nitpicks:


 * [ [:Image:Trial by Jury - So I fell in love with a rich attorney's elderly ugly daughter.png]] and Image:Trial by Jury Usher.jpg both appear to be from books - the full publication of those books should be on the image description pages.
 * Done. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I still think the "Reception" section is quote-heavy. I am thinking one quote per paragraph, perhaps? :) Ok, I'll be less Draconian, two?


 * These would, from this point forward, provide a grounding point for romantic characters in each of the Savoy operas, providing an introspective scene in which such characters stop and consider life, in contrast to the foolishness of the surrounding scenes. - repetition of "provide".
 * Fixed Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk)


 * Like both of the tenor's arias in Trial by Jury, tenor arias in later Savoy operas were set in 6/8 time so frequently... - Perhaps link 6/8 time for the non-musically inclined?
 * Fixed. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As Crowther explains, Gilbert combines his criticisms with comic entertainment, which renders them more palatable, while at the same time underlining their truth: "By laughing at a joke you show that you accept its premise. - First mention of Crowther needs to tell the reader who he is.
 * Fixed. There was a couple refshuffles, and it appears we missed moving a bit of attribution, now provided.


 * The following tables show the casts of the principal original productions and D'Oyly Carte companies at approximately 10-year intervals through to the 1975 centenary season - I'm still unconvinced that all of these cast lists are necessary. The originals, yes, but why at ten-year intervals? This just seems arbitrary to me.
 * The D'Oyly Carte Opera Company split up when I was two, so I'm not fully conversant, but, as I understand it, the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company was, perforce, the focus of a great deal of love for Gilbert and Sullivan up until their breakup. As such, each generation of performers gained their fans, and, as they had an almost ridiculously rigid control on performances in Britain - not following their prompt-books could result in you never gaining permission to perform the opera again - they proved hugely significant to generations of Gilbert and Sullivan fans, directors, etc. In another thirty years, these cast lists may be less important, but the works only left copyright (and thus the rigid control) in 1961 (Life +50 was then the rule, I believe), and thus they are still significant. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 16:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The DOC did not license any other professional G&S companies in Britain, and so it was the only authorized professional G&S company in Britain until 1961. Even after this, they continued to be the premiere G&S company in the world until their dissolution in 1982.  They toured the shows constantly in Britain during the creators' lifetimes and thereafter and performed frequent seasons in London, as well as touring the world.  Their performers also made the only licensed recordings of G&S until 1961 and their recordings continued to be in high demand after that.  So these performers are well known to modern fans.  Indeed, many of the vintage recordings with the famous performers shown in these tables have recently been re-released.  So, for some of our readers, these tables will be of interest, I think.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I hate to sound contrarian, but I don't think these answers are really addressing my point. I asked why ten-year intervals. I'm sure this company is important, but I am not sure that these particular performances are. Why not five-year intervals? Why not seven? I'm just not convinced that the process of selection of these cast lists was anything other than arbitrary. Awadewit (talk) 16:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Over to Ssilvers, he's our expert on performers. With the exception of a few prominent members of the original casts, I am completely ignorant about them.Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 17:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * After reviewing the historical casts, it appeared from the sources that there was major turnover in casts about every 10 years, and that by selecting this interval, we would be able to show the names of most of the famous performers. If we had selected five years, there would be a lot of repetition and hardly any new notable names would appear.  If we had selected 20 years, many of the famous names would be missed.  So it seemed the best choice.  This was true not only for Trial but for all the G&S operas.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok - could we explain that to the reader of the article? :) Awadewit (talk) 17:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure. I added a sentence above the tables.  Perhaps it would be better as a footnote, though?  It seems to me that only a select few eagle-eyed readers will wonder about this.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the sentence is fine, but if you would prefer a footnote, that is fine, too. Awadewit (talk) 13:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a thoroughly enjoyable article and I think the fun of the play comes through in it - well done all. Awadewit (talk) 15:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. I've copyedited this article and checked over the references, but haven't done much to the content. Rosuav (talk) 06:52, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Great. No problems as far as I can see. --Folantin (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Great article on my favorite G&S.  &mdash;  Music  Maker  5376  14:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.