Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Turtle/archive1

Turtle

 * Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC), Chiswick Chap

This is another article about a major group of animals with unique adaptations. Turtles are defined by a bony or cartilaginous shell, developed from their ribs, which acts as a shield. We been working on this for months and feel it is now ready. Special thanks to and. LittleJerry (talk) 20:48, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Jens

 * Some quick notes for now:


 * late Jurassic, late Triassic: these need to be upper case
 * Fixed.


 * I suggest to avoid "et al." in the text (replace with "and colleagues") since this is a really technical term that is easy to avoid.
 * Fixed.


 * In both the text and the citations, there is inconsistency how you write author names: surname only, with initial, or full name.
 * , could you please? LittleJerry (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I found and fixed a few inconsistencies, but I do not have an easy way to replace author initials with full names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Spelled out forenames. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)


 * 71% of all tortoise species are either gone or almost gone. – This is too unspecific imo, I don't know what "gone or almost gone" precisely means, and what it adds. Why not stick with terms like "critically endangered"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The shapes of turtle shells vary with the adaptations of the individual species. and sometimes with gender.  – dot too much
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:19, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Source review - not passed

 * Asher, J. Lichtig; Spencer G., Lucas; – I think you are confusing surnames and given names here?
 * Gone. LittleJerry (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Lyson et al.. (2010) – two dots
 * Don't see it. LittleJerry (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, you already fixed it while replacing "et al." with "and colleagues". --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Source "Thomson_Spinks_Shaffer_2021": Link to pdf is not working for me.
 * Removed URL, article has DOI access. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Don't use the em dash for page ranges (e.g., 44–45, not "44—45").
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:55, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't want to be a pain, but there are also some ranges that use the simple hyphen-minus, e.g. "118-120". That should be consistent. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The Rambling Man has fixed them (thanks!). Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * genus and species names need to be in italics (I spot several examples in the references where they are not)
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 00:13, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I still spot at least two examples that are not. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:21, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed those. LittleJerry (talk) 00:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * check the use of title case for all references (MOS:TITLECAPS).
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 01:56, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * WWF source Throughout their life-cycle, marine turtles … – I think you need to cite the report (not the webpage) and with the correct title.
 * Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Red-eared slider turtles (Trachemys scripta elegans) – Where is this source published, and what makes it a reliable source?
 * Replaced claim and ref using Van Dijk 2002. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:28, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * (no byline) (April 1, 1899). – What does this mean?
 * It means that the linked 1899 article listed no named author. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Then the Queen left off, quite out of breath, and said to Alice, 'Have you seen the Mock Turtle yet?' 'No', said Alice. 'I don't even know what a Mock Turtle is.' 'It's the thing Mock Turtle Soup is made from', said the Queen." Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, chapter 9 — Is this the correct way to cite it? It also lacks information (pages, publisher etc.). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It was a quotation reference. Added a citation.


 * Orenstein 2012, pp. 274. – single "p."? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed.

Spot checks:


 * The development of a shell reaches completion with the late Triassic Proganochelys. It lacked the ability to pull its head into its shell, and had a long neck and a long, spiked tail ending in a club, somewhat like an ankylosaur.[94] – can't find it in the source.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Paragraph The turtles' exact ancestry has been disputed. … – again, not really covered by the source? Isn't there a better source than this museum webpage?
 * Replaced source.


 * The date of separation of turtles and birds and crocodiles was estimated to be 255 million years ago. – Again, I can't find it. Is it in the source cited for the previous sentence?
 * Yes, repeated the ref for the sentence. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Paragraph Turtles make use of vision to find food and mates, to avoid predators, and to orient themselves. … – The source you use for this paragraph is about sea turtles. On what basis can you apply it to turtles in general?
 * Added citation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * A freshwater turtle, the red-eared slider, has an exceptional seven types of cone cell defined by the color of their oil droplets and their photopigments.[36] – This checks, but I think the source says something different. Instead of "defined by", it states "based on", and I think this gives it quite a different meaning. I propose to just delete the part "defined by the color of their oil droplets and their photopigments", this is only the method used to come to the conclusion, not needed in this general article.
 * Agree, removed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * In the laboratory, turtles (Pseudemys nelsoni) can learn novel tasks and have demonstrated a long-term memory of at least 7.5 months. – Checks.
 * Noted.


 * Turtles share the linked circulatory and pulmonary systems of vertebrates, – Checks.
 * Noted.


 * Turtles are widely distributed across the world's continents and oceans, being absent mainly from the polar regions, the northern parts of North America and Eurasia – Parts of this paragraph do not appear in the source (which is, again, a museum website). And the source also states "The migratory route of some leatherbacks may pass close to the Arctic Circle", therefore contradicting your statement that turtles are absent from the polar regions.
 * Replaced source, edited paragraph using Pough 2001.

I have to conclude that the spot checks did not pass. The sourcing does not yet seem to be of the high standard required for an FA. I suggest to carefully double-check the whole article content again, and then request a second spot check, preferably done by somebody else. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Funk
Ran the script one more time. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sure this'll be popular among reviewers, so marking my spot now, and will return when I've reviewed some of the more urgent, old nominations. FunkMonk (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
 * At first glance, looks like there's a good deal of duplinks, which can be highlighted with the usual script.
 * ? LittleJerry (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to see a resolution to the serious sourcing issue above resolved before continuing. FunkMonk (talk) 13:52, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

We have done another check-through and clean up and are really for another spotcheck. LittleJerry (talk) 01:37, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Femke
May do the second source check if I can find time somewhere (very maybe), but for now starting with a understandability/accessibility review
 * The first sentence come across as elitist to me, we have two Latin names and two scary IPA's. Is there a way compliant with MOS that prevents that? Maybe put one of the less common Latin names in a footnote? Maybe we can put the IPA in the naming section only?
 * Moved the IPAs to Naming sction. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:48, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * For non-experts, provide an approximate timeframe for Middle Jurassic
 * Done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:44, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * while the underside is the flatter plastron -> Is there a way to avoid the word plastron and link it? At the very least, link so that people can hover over it.
 * Linked and glossed.


 * The carapace bones develop from ribs which grow sideways and develop broad flanges that join up to cover the body. Assume people are like me and don't know what flanges is -> "The carapace bones develop from ribs which grow sideways and join up to cover the body."?
 * Reworded.


 * It is not know how the navigate -> source in body is from 2013. Is that still reflecting current knowledge?
 * Yes.


 * "hunted for their meat, for use in traditional medicine, and for their carapaces." I don't think the latter is supported by the text (checked conservation). Bit nit-picky, but the 'As food and other uses' doesn't seem to relate it directly to hunting.
 * Edited the 'As food' section'; added and cited mention of hunting hawksbills.


 * Harvesting wild turtles is legal in some American states -> 2007 source. Still true?
 * Yes, added 2020 ref.


 * Some alts are missing for images. While purely decorative images don't need alts, there is at least one ('Crested caracara eating a turtle') where the alt should contain information about a bird being displayed, as caracara is jargon. Check through-out. FemkeMilene (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Added. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Use the lang template for non-English words in the 'in culture' subsection. FemkeMilene (talk) 16:31, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Added.


 * The smallest living turtle is the speckled padloper tortoise of South Africa, measuring no more than 100 cm (39 in) in length -> I assume this is meant to say 10 cm? FemkeMilene (talk) 09:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes.
 * It was 100 mm in the book, still a typo.


 * I would go for cm rather than mm, as it's the more common unit. FemkeMilene (talk) 17:07, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Done. LittleJerry (talk) 18:38, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * I can't find the information about the bite force in that source (table 1). There is one entry for 432 N in there (rather than the weird unit of force now mentioned first). FemkeMilene (talk) 17:13, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks as if the conversion had the units back to front. Fixed.
 * So you are sure Phrynops nasutus and Mesoclemmys nasuta refer to the same species? FemkeMilene (talk) 17:57, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes see here LittleJerry (talk) 18:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the synonym is one of those listed at Mesoclemmys nasuta. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I did look and ctrl F there, but didn't see the collapsible list. Another reason for NOHIDE :). FemkeMilene (talk) 18:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The 1965 PhD thesis is quite an old source to make such a general statement about hearing (500 Hz). The source says that sensitivity dropped quickly above 500 Hz, not that hearing is completely absent as far as I can tell. Are there more modern sources available? FemkeMilene (talk) 18:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Replaced. LittleJerry (talk) 19:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)


 * About units
 * make sure there is no false precision (5 km != 3.1 m, but 3)
 * Rounded. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:49, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * formatting (33 Celsius)
 * Done.
 * SI units have to go before regional units (f.i. at least 104 °F (40 °C) should be at least 40 °C (104 °F). It may be that the original scientific source had showed 40, if so 104 may be false precision by U.S. Department of Agriculture). Check throughout, also seeing some feet before meters.
 * Meters before feet throughout. Added a source with a temperature graph; updated text to show a range and the word "about" (the convert gadget can't round to nearest 5 °F or whatever). Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * front-limbs -> why hyphen? FemkeMilene (talk) 10:27, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Removed.
 * crema de tortuga -> lang template. FemkeMilene (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Source review - not passed

I'll spot-check one/two sources per section, and will only continue with formatting if spot checking passes
 * The second paragraph of naming and etymology is not fully supported by the dictionary sources. The words taxa, veterinarians, scientists, and conservationists are not mentioned
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * FN42 is quite old (1972). Do modern sources say more about smell / generalise it to more species?
 * Added. LittleJerry (talk) 13:05, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * FN48 checks out
 * FN65 checks out
 * FN76: again, quite an old source. The source only supports the specific (as seen in green turtles), but does not seem to support the general statement.
 * Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * FN137 checks out, but may benefit from having a fuller range / uncertainty, as extinction 59 years in the future seems to be the lower end of the more 'alarming' method. The fact that turtles are getting extinct faster than other groups may warrant inclusion, maybe even in the lede
 * FN154 checks out
 * more later. FemkeMilene (talk) 11:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * What makes Institute for Traditional Medicine reliable? FN187 does not mention the word guilinggao.
 * But it means the same thing as turtle jelly. LittleJerry (talk) 17:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Still does not seem like a reliable source to me; it's a website for alternative medicine, right? FemkeMilene (talk) 18:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * replaced. LittleJerry (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * What makes guitarbench reliable?
 * replaced. LittleJerry (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * FN180 does not seem to support 'In Europe, large numbers of Mediterranean tortoises were caught and traded.'.
 * The statement is gleaned from the the fact that several of the listed turtle pets in the UK are from the Mediterranean, that they are imported from Europe and "in 1984 a ban on importation of Mediterranean tortoises was finally n 1984 a ban on importation of Mediterranean tortoises was finally approved". LittleJerry (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I must conclude that the second source review has also not passed, as I've found too many statements that were not fully supported by the sourcing, including in my general review before the source review. I think a peer review is probably needed to do a more systematic check of sourcing. FemkeMilene (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Withdraw: We would like to withdraw the nomination for more cleanup. LittleJerry (talk) 16:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:34, 9 August 2021 (UTC)