Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tweed Courthouse/archive1

Tweed Courthouse

 * Nominator(s): epicgenius (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

This article is about the Tweed Courthouse, a historic building in Manhattan, New York City, erected in the late 19th century. Its construction was famously mired in corruption, and Tammany Hall leader William M. Tweed and his political allies siphoned off millions of dollars from work contracts. Much maligned until the mid-20th century, it was designated as a National Historic Landmark in 1974 and as a New York City landmark in 1984, and now serves as the New York City Department of Education's headquarters.

This page was promoted as a Good Article a few months ago thanks to an excellent GA review from. After a much-appreciated copy edit by, I think it's up to FA quality now. I look forward to all comments and feedback. epicgenius (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Support Comments from Truflip99
Reserving spot. --truflip99 (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2020 (UTC) More later. --truflip99 (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2020 (UTC) More later. I got distracted by the muntin article while reading this and ended up shopping for DIYs. Looks good so far though. Well done! --truflip99 (talk) 20:31, 1 May 2020 (UTC) Might be it from me on prose. Interesting read! --truflip99 (talk) 19:12, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * May as well link courthouse in lead
 * Done.
 * Something needs to be done about the 3 red links
 * Not necessarily, if there's reasonable expectation that the articles will eventually be created. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:28, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, per WP:REDLINK, I just learned that red links don't need to removed even from featured articles, if it's possible they can be created in the future. I commented something else on your own FAC, truflip99. Sorry about that. epicgenius (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Modern restoration and historic preservation of the courthouse were completed in 2001. Since the completion of the renovation, the Tweed Courthouse has contained the headquarters of the New York City Department of Education on its upper floors, and schools on its ground level. The Tweed Courthouse was made a New York City Designated Landmark in 1984 and was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1974. -- possibly reorganize this by chronological order?
 * Done.
 * It consists of four and a half floors, including a half-floor attic, but excluding two mezzanine levels. -- I'm not really following this.
 * The building is four and a half stories high. There are 4 full floors and a half-story-tall attic. Mezzanine levels aren't really counted as separate floors - think of them as being staircase landings. epicgenius (talk) 20:37, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It would be nice if you could explain this somehow. --truflip99 (talk) 20:31, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * with the longer side being located on the west-east axis. -- you can omit "being" here
 * Done.
 * The roof was replaced three times: first with an iron roof in the early 20th century, then with an asphalt roof in 1978 or 1979, and finally with a stainless steel-over-rubber roof in 2001. -- roof is redundant
 * Fixed.
 * "some of the finest mid-19th century interiors in New York." -- the period should be outside the quote here, per MOS:LQ
 * Done.
 * The portico is approached by a reproduction of the building's original large granite stairway which was removed to accommodate a widening of that street in the mid-20th century[7][10][16] but restored in 2002. -- possibly merge these refs into one and put it at the end of the sentence. Also, just curious -- how did the restoration affect the widened street?
 * Done, and clarified this. The street is narrower where the staircase has been restored. epicgenius (talk) 00:26, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * original pilasters, centered colonettes, and paneled blind railings, and are set within a marble surround. -- "which" are set?
 * Done.
 * Multiple documents and testimony -- not testimonies?
 * Done.
 * he worked with Richard Upjohn and Otto Blesch, collaborating with both architects -- borderline redundant
 * Removed.
 * The Tweed Courthouse is located at the northern end of City Hall Park[39] and is the second-oldest municipal government building in Manhattan, -- place ref at end of comma
 * Done.
 * The courthouse site had been occupied previously by the city's public commons and by a poorhouse. and Other government buildings would be built at the courthouse's future site, including an almshouse, -- isn't this rather redundant?
 * Yeah, the almshouse is. I removed it. epicgenius (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * after New York City Hall to the south. and City Hall was situated just south of the courthouse site, -- this too?
 * Yeah, thanks. epicgenius (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "a classic in the annals of American graft." -- MOS:LQ
 * Done.
 * "many holes both in the floor and roof are visible in which to bury the money of the tax-payers." -- MOS:LQ
 * Done.
 * demolish the courthouse[75] as part of the restoration of City Hall Park. -- ref at end of sentence
 * Done.
 * Usage of the building was also changed several times. -- omit was
 * Done.
 * A long-term $6.3 million[86] renovation began in 1990, -- ref end of comma
 * Done.
 * truflip99 Thanks, I have done all of these. epicgenius (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Supporting! --truflip99 (talk) 15:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Edit: for the ref section, I don't think you need the "Notes" subheader, as those are not even notes. --truflip99 (talk) 15:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Support from John M Wolfson
I'll take WikiCup points for this.
 * Why is the pre-restoration courtroom photo, which presumably dates to 1919, placed in a section dealing mainly with the 1970s?
 * I don't know. I've removed it. epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * File:EAST_FACADE_-_New_York_County_Courthouse,_52_Chambers_Street,_New_York,_New_York_County,_NY_HABS_NY,31-NEYO,116-5.tif says it was made in 1933, but I see the old World Trade Center in the background. Caught myself
 * The fourth floor contains a similar T-shaped plan to the floors underneath it. Like the floors below, it contains marble floors, plaster walls and ceilings, and corner stairs leading from the third floor. Stairs extend upward to the attic.[21] ... The attic contains a floor made of concrete and wood. A lattice truss and other structures supporting the roof, as well as the rotunda's skylight, are also located in the attic. should be condensed to one paragraph, methinks.
 * Done.
 * Perhaps the second-floor view and interior view of the rotunda are redundant.
 * I got rid of the former. epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

That's all for now. I ran into this issue before, so let me state that this does not constitute a full image review. Otherwise this looks pretty good so far. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:12, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I've addressed all of them now. epicgenius (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

More
 * The building's facade was constructed in 1861–1872 to designs by architect John Kellum and political appointee Thomas Little. Not only is this suboptimally written, the "facade" remark leads me to believe that the building was only its exterior facade and otherwise gutted, which is contradicted in the body (since it was occupied by 1876).
 * Fixed.
 * Quite a few links, such as "foliate" and "Harper's Weekly", are linked multiple times throughout the article, contrary to best practices. You can use this tool to highlight them.
 * Done.
 * City Hall and the now-demolished Rotunda What Rotunda? (ditto for its future appearances) Also, I think the City Hall was built earlier than 1874.
 * This refers to The Rotunda (New York City), which was an art gallery. 1870 is an incorrect date - which I don't know where that came from. epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * New York City Board of Supervisors I believe it should be County.
 * Fixed, good catch. epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Given the extent of the graft it would be nice to have inflation figures. Inflation can help with that where the year is known.
 * I've added these where they are most relevant to the cost of the building itself. epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There were several attempts to destroy the courthouse throughout most of its first century of existence. "Demolish" might be a more "neutral" word.
 * Done.

Otherwise I'm inclined to support this. Nice work! – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:23, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks again. I have addressed your next comments as well. epicgenius (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

One last thing: The Tweed Courthouse was made a New York City Designated Landmark in 1984 and was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1974. should probably be in chronological order. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 17:08, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have done this. epicgenius (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Support. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 17:38, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

 * "and the corruption involved in the building's construction was disclosed to the public." perhaps "exposed" for "disclosed"?
 * Done.
 * Panels of granite and Tuckahoe marble[11] and Sheffield marbles[12]" a bit run on?
 * Fixed, good catch.
 * " no documentation regarding the use of other quarries has been found.[6]" I might add a year.
 * Done.
 * Elevators is linked on second use.
 * Fixed.
 * Painted-over probably doesn't need the hyphen.
 * Removed. Thanks for the comments, Wehwalt. epicgenius (talk) 01:22, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "brownstone" In the sense of a residential townhouse?
 * The first one is actually a "brown stone" column, sorry about that. The second one is like a townhouse, yes. epicgenius (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "He redesigned Kellum's neoclassical interiors with rich polychrome effects in Romanesque Revival style, as well as added ornamental and architectural detailing (such as arches and foliate detail) to integrate the new wing's design with the rest of the courthouse." Not sure "as well as added" works, maybe "and also added"
 * Done.
 * You say it was financed by stocks. Stocks in what? Were these more like bonds?
 * Yes, these were public stocks, presumably in the city government. epicgenius (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Some mention of Tweed's death might be useful.
 * Done.
 * I've made a few minor edits, feel free to change or revert as desired. That's all I have.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:01, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your comments. I think I've addressed all of them now. epicgenius (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Support Looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:34, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Image review - pass
I'd like to go ahead and do the image and source review for this. Hoping you could do MAX Yellow Line's ref review in return if you have time. Sources to follow. --truflip99 (talk) 15:57, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * maybe move some images to the left in alternative fashion?
 * I moved a few of them. epicgenius (talk) 19:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * could you create a summary for the fireplace and mosaic floor photos?
 * Done.
 * source link for Portrait of Leopold Eidlitz?
 * Done.
 * Thanks for taking up the image review . Regarding Hoping you could do MAX Yellow Line's ref review in return if you have time. - Sure, I could do that. epicgenius (talk) 19:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe a couple more pics to the left? --truflip99 (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have done so. Technically MOS:IMGLOC says that images should be placed to the right if possible, but I don't mind moving some images left. epicgenius (talk) 16:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Refs - pass
Starting. --truflip99 (talk) 17:03, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Appears to be it. --truflip99 (talk) 17:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The NYT scans should have page number included
 * Done, except for the sources where the www.nytimes.com page has the full text. epicgenius (talk) 21:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * infobox ref 2 -- move it to cover Leopold Eidlitz as well, since that ref states his name
 * Done.
 * "Historic Structures Report: Old New York County Courthouse". National Register of Historic Places, National Park Service. 1974. -- this bibl links to an NRHP nomination form, contrary to its wiki title, and seems to be a duplicate of ref 109
 * Removed.
 * ref 32 -- page?
 * Already given, just that cite journal formats it differently.
 * ref 49 -- page?
 * Removed.
 * ref 50 -- page?
 * Added.
 * ref 61 -- date is wrong
 * Fixed.
 * ref 64 -- expand the title with the sub title as it's too vague
 * Done.
 * ref 74 -- check year
 * Fixed.
 * Schuyler, Montgomery (1884). American Architecture And Other Writings – via Internet Archive. -- publisher? editor? why isn't date 1961? ISBN?
 * Fixed. There is no ISBN available for this source. epicgenius (talk) 21:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 109b -- does not support sentence
 * Removed.
 * 110 -- does not support sentence
 * Removed.
 * Thanks, I have addressed these. epicgenius (talk) 21:52, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
Just a note to myself that source/image reviews are still required and have been requested at WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It looks like the source and image reviews have been done. Additionally, this has four prose supports and no opposes. Is anything else needed for this nomination? Thanks in advance. 🇪 🇵 🇮 🇨 🇬 🇪 🇳 🇮 🇺 🇸 (talk) 15:02, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Harry

 *  able to steal at least $75 million from New York City public funds (equal to $2 billion in 2018) That's an astronomical sum! I'd love to see some more detail, like what on Earth he spent that sort of money on in the 1850s and how he got away with it, even if it's just a sentence.
 * I added how this was able to slip by undetected. According to the Encyclopedia of New York City, fifth edition, Tweed used at least part of his fortune to buy a mansion on Fifth Avenue and 43rd Street. However, I'm not sure that this fact is relevant to the article in particular. epicgenius (talk) 23:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * the Board of Supervisors created the "Special Committee on the New Court House", which found no wrongdoing in its own actions "its own" reads like the committee found no wrongdoing on the committee's part, but I think you mean it found no wrongdoing on the supervisors' part.
 * Fixed.
 * which made the courthouse eligible for federal funds, but did not yet protect the structure from demolition The status doesn't provide protection, or didn't at the time but does now?
 * The NRHP status doesn't provide protection against demolition. According to the NPS, "Owners of National Register properties can remodel, renovate, sell, or even demolish their property with no restrictions" (though this might result in removal from the NRHP). However, NYC Landmark status (which was granted in 1984) is much more strict. According to the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission, "LPC must approve in advance any alteration, reconstruction, demolition, or new construction affecting the designated building." I added the last part to the history section as well. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I made a few copy edits, but otherwise all looks good on prose.
 * Thanks. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources: All appear reliable and appropriate to the context. A few formatting inconsistencies:
 * Most of your multi-page sources are in the separate bibliography (which is the way I would do it), but some are cited fully in the footnotes (eg FN 29 and 41).
 * I have now standardized these. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * FN 42 is still a long citation in a list of short citations. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 08:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Oops, I fixed that. epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Some book sources have publisher locations, others don't.
 * I think this has been fixed now, because I don't see any publisher's names. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are still some books with locations and some without. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 08:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this up Harry. I found out that the publisher locations are used where single-source citation templates are being used. epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Is the reduced-size text in the bibliography really necessary?
 * I did this to harmonize with the references list. Do you want me to remove refbegin and refend? By using these templates, the bibliography takes up less space. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would eliminate it to make the bibliography easier to read, but it's up to you. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 08:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. In this case I would choose to keep this, since both the reference and bibliography lists are now the same size with the same column width. epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would have expected a longer bibliography for such an important building. Surely it must be covered in more general works about NYC architecture or even American architecture? From a cursory Google Books search, I found 1, 2, 3 books not cited here that would help show that the article was a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 21:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It may not seem like much, but the reason more books aren't included is that most of the books say the same thing as what's already stated in the article by other sources. The Architecture of Public Justice: Historic Courthouses in the City of New York is not only not easily accessible (I was only able to look at it in the main NY Public Library branch), but also doesn't say anything that isn't repeated here. Representing Justice: Invention, Controversy, and Rights talks only about the present New York County Courthouse, which is altogether different. However, I have added The Architecture of New York City: Histories and Views of Important Structures, Sites, and Symbols, which does have some interesting stuff. Looking at it again, there was another book that I apparently did not include because it also repeated information that was already mentioned by other sources. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd have included the ones that were easy to get hold of personally, but it's an editorial choice. HJ Mitchell &#124; Penny for your thoughts? 08:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. I did include the ones that I was able to easily reach. epicgenius (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate these, and have addressed all of them. epicgenius (talk) 23:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Support. My quibbles have all been addressed and this is an excellent article. HJ Mitchell</b> &#124; <span style="color: navy; font-family: Times New Roman" title="(Talk page)">Penny for your thoughts? 18:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 08:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)