Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Upper Pine Bottom State Park/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 20:44, 10 November 2009.

Upper Pine Bottom State Park

 * Nominator(s): Dincher (talk) and Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

We are nominating this for featured article because we believe it represents some of the best work that Wikipedia has to offer regarding state parks. It follows a format and style very similar to that of Black Moshannon State Park, Worlds End State Park, Leonard Harrison State Park, Colton Point State Park, and Cherry Springs State Park, which are all featured articles that we have worked on. It has undergone an extensive peer review (thanks to Brianboulton and Niagara). This follows the MOS here, specifically ''In articles that cover two or more taxonomic groups, a consistent style of capitalization should be used for species names. This could involve the use of: ...title case for common names of species throughout (see WP:BIRDS) and lower case for non-specific names such as eagle or bilberry, which may work well for articles with a broad coverage of natural history''.

Although there is not much there today beyond picnic tables, a parking lot, and a lovely trout stream, it has an interesting history. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Dincher (talk) and Ruhrfisch  &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Technical comments No dab links, all external links check out, and there's no obvious errors in alt text after minor fixes. (A red flag does show up at the alt checker for the little expand icon under the panorama, but that's a minor template bug, not one with the actual article.) --an odd name 22:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking these and for the copyedits. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 22:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment Very nice article, but can we get a better lead image than a picnic table? Reywas92 Talk 23:08, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind words. All of the images are on Commons, so do you have any suggestions? My rationale for the lead image is that the park today is essentially a picnic area and parking lot and a trout stream and it shows two of those (table and stream). There's nothing else man-made there now except for a few signs and the reinforced stream banks. I personally think that File:Upper Pine Bottom State Park Run 1.jpg is the prettiest image, but it is a bit dark and fits better in the Ecology section (I think). I am open to suggestions though, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * PS There is also a funny story about the lead image - maybe I'll relate it on the article talk page someday, but it makes it a special pic for me. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand, but a picnic table is awfully generic. It doesn't have to be man-made. I think File:Upper Pine Bottom State Park Run 3.jpg would work fine, or else the table can swap positions with File:Upper Pine Bottom State Park Sign.jpg; the run in it is difficult to notice anyway.
 * I do like the sign pic. But I will leave this up to Ruhrfisch. Dincher (talk) 01:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I have swapped the images per your suggestion - thanks for the idea. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Further comments:
 * "traces its existence back to the early 1920s" > "traces its existence to the early 1920s"
 * changed this, thanks. Dincher (talk) 01:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "one of the smallest state park" > "one of the smallest state parks"
 * fixed Dincher (talk) 01:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "large predators such as Wolves, Lynx, Wolverines, Panthers, Fishers, Bobcats and foxes" Lowercase, as with next sentence.
 * you'll find this note here and at the top of the other Pennsylvania state park FAs. -- Note - the convention used for this article is that species names are capitalized, but other plant and animals are not: so "Cooper's Hawk", but just "hawks". -- Dincher (talk) 01:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "recreational opportunities witihin" sp. Reywas92 Talk  00:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed this too, Dincher (talk) 01:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks to Reywas92 for catching these and Dincher for the fixes Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Support Great job! Pictures look good. Reywas92 Talk 03:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Alt text is present (thanks), except that it's missing for File:Upper Pine Bottom State Park.JPG; can you please fix this? Eubulides (talk) 08:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it is fixed now. It got messed up when I moved the image down into the body of the article from the lead. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 11:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Support: My detailed comments were made at peer review, where all my concerns were satisfactorily addressed. I like the new lead image. I'm sure that further minor fixes will arise from this review, since every article is capable of further improvement, but in my view the featured article criteria are satisfied here. The detail is thorough, the images are awesome. A worthy addition to the Parks series. Brianboulton (talk) 17:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your supprt, thorough peer review, and kind words, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:03, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support! Dincher (talk) 23:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking those Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)\

Support (by Finetooth) and comments. I made a few minor c/e changes; please revert any you don't find suitable.
 *  Oppose until Pennsylvania Route 44 is written . Erm, I mean support. Another great job for Pennsylvania's great state parks. :D - Do some of the ones out my way (Promised Land, etc.) - You could have a Penn State Parks Featured Topic at your rate. Mitch 32(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!) 14:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your support and kind words - there 120 Pennsylvania State Parks, so we'd need 40 FAs and 80 GAs (eek). The are 21 parks in the "20 must see parks" list (they count two as one) so that might be a better potential FT. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, as of May 2010, 60 - 60. :( - But you can also divide them by region if you must. (PennDOT supplies 11 regions if you need splitting for the topics. Mitch 32(A fortune in fabulous articles can be yours!) 22:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support! Dincher (talk) 21:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * In the last sentence of "Native Americans", I believe "natives" should be lowercase.
 * changed, thanks Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Lumber and turnpike
 * This sentence is missing a word or words: "A post office was established in nearby Waterville in 1849; other early business establishments there were two stores, and a hotel which still stands." Maybe "... other early businesses included two stores and a hotel, which still stands."
 * Brianboulton suggested we change the last comma to its current location in the PR, my guess is it is an AE vs. BE issue. Anyway, changed now to your version, thanks Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Economic development and increased settlement led the Pennsylvania General Assembly to establish Cummings Township in 1832, with land taken from parts of Mifflin and Brown Townships." - Maybe "Economic development and increased settlement led the Pennsylvania General Assembly to establish Cummings Township in 1832 from land taken from parts of Mifflin and Brown Townships."
 * Changed to your version, thanks Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "The boom was a series of artificial islands with chains between them to catch logs and led to an expansion of the lumber industry, with Williamsport becoming the "Lumber Capital of the World". - Maybe "The boom, a series of artificial islands with chains between them to catch logs, led to an expansion of the lumber industry and to Williamsport's nickname, "Lumber Capital of the World".
 * Also changed to your version, thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Nothing was left except the dried-out tree tops, which became a fire hazard." - For readers who know nothing about logging, should something be added to explain that the tree tops were discards littering the floor of the former forest?
 * Added "discarded" so it now reads Nothing was left except the discarded, dried-out tree tops, which became a fire hazard, so much of the land burned and was left barren. Tried to add that they were on the ground, but it didn't read well. Also tried adding "and stumps" after tree tops, but it also seemed awkward. How is the current version? Thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * State forest and park
 * Conservationists like Dr. Joseph Rothrock became concerned that the forests would not regrow if they were not managed properly." - Delete "Dr." per WP:CREDENTIAL. You could add, "a physician" after his name, but his medical degree doesn't seem directly related to his forest expertise.
 * Good catch, thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * "Although the roof of a structure was still visible in the park in a 1959 aerial photo, as of 2009 there are no pavilions or other structures in the park." - Maybe "buildings" instead of "structures" since picnic tables and signs might be considered structures?
 * Changed, thanks, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Geology and climate
 * When Pine Creek flowed northeast, where was the mouth? Maybe this is unknown, but I can't help wondering.
 * I did not add this to the article as it seems too off topic, but Dillon's book (which I happened to have at hand) says that Pine Creek followed what is now Marsh Creek northeast from where Ansonia is now (the northern end of the gorge, where US 6 crosses Pine Creek). My recollection from Owlett's book is that the proto-Pine Creek is believed to have followed the rough course of Crooked Creek after that, which flows into the Tioga River, which in turn flows north into New York state and the Chemung River and that eventually flows into the Susquehanna River. You can see follow most of this on the PennDOT Tioga County map here (follow US 6 NE out of Ansonia, then PA 287 to the NY line). Probably more detail than you wanted. ;-) Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Would it be helpful to say approximately when the land around what is now the park was part of a shallow sea? I'm thinking of readers who might wrongly conclude that the "20,000 years ago" in the first paragraph applied also or almost to the shallow sea.


 * An excellent job overall. I love reading about these parks. Finetooth (talk) 17:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for your support, copyedits, helpful comments, and kind words. Will start responding individually to the comments next, Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suppport and copy edit. We enjoy working on the park articles! Dincher (talk) 21:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Striking all. Everything I mentioned has been resolved. Thanks for the Pine Creek flow details; I thought maybe proto-Allegheny, but proto-North Branch Susquehanna is an interesting answer. Finetooth (talk) 22:30, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Note I have taken a few more photos of the park, which are shown at Talk:Upper Pine Bottom State Park, and added one to the article (with alt text). Any comments on the new image(s) are welcome. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Image review - File:Pine Creek Log Raft.jpg - As the copyright claim for this photo rests on the claim that it was published before 1923, please list pre-1923 publication information for it. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 01:31, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking the images. I scanned and uploaded the photo originally and included all available information in Owlett's book (my source). Later when I saw the same image in Taber's book, I added all of the information Taber's book contained about it. I have three ideas:
 * I will email the Pennsylvania Lumber Museum next and ask if they have any publication information on the image.
 * Owlett's book (the source) identifies this as on Pine Creek and says that the last log drive on Pine Creek was in 1905. Is there any sort of "over 100 years old" license?
 * If you knew the author's name, there would be "life of the author + 70 years". Awadewit (talk) 03:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I do not know any more about the author / photographer. I have emailed the Lumber Museum - will wait and see what they say. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If all else fails, I plan to upload a low res version here for Fair Use and request deletion on Commons. Does that seem reasonable? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Awadewit (talk) 03:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Update - I emailed the Lumber Museum before they opened Thursday. It has been two business days and I have heard nothing yet. How long should I wait? Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 23:20, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess wait until Tues., then upload low res. Dincher (talk) 23:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I will wait until the end of the business day Tuesday (which will be four business days). I have already made a low res version of the image just in case. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ruhrfisch, will you leave a note on my talk page when the image issue is resolved? I'll be promoting/archiving later today. Karanacs (talk) 18:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, after 3.5+ business days I have heard nothing back from the Pennsylvania Lumber Museum, so I put a copyvio tag on the high res scan on Commons here and uploaded a low res, fair use justified verison here at File:Pine Creek Log Raft.jpg. I will also leave this not on Karanacs' talk page. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:13, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.