Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Virginia Eliza Clemm Poe


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 19:47, 30 June 2008.

Virginia Eliza Clemm Poe

 * Nominator(s): Midnightdreary (talk)

I'm nominating this article for FA to see if other editors feel that it is ready. I'm not convinced myself but I'm sure this review will, if nothing else, encourage its improvement. Thanks, as always! --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * http://www.eapoe.org/pstudies/PS1960/P1968108.HTM was this a newsletter published by a academic press or what?
 * Who is the publisher of http://www.usna.edu/EnglishDept/poeperplex/alcoholp.htm and why is it a reliable source?
 * Links checked out with the link checker tool, other sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for dropping in, Ealdgyth. The first link you mention is to a peer-reviewed scholarly publication; certainly not a newsletter! The second is not the most reliable source, but it only serves as verification; there is already another supportive footnote. It could be removed, I suppose, if other editors think it should be. --Midnightdreary (talk) 23:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm. The title of the publication is given as "Poe Newsletter" (grins). (current ref 30) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you looked again, you might notice that the "Poe Newsletter" was renamed to Poe Studies, a publication of the Edgar Allan Poe Society of Baltimore and the Washington State University Press. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for helping with that. I'll leave the other for other reviewers to decide if it's needed/not needed. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:35, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm torn on this one myself. I'm not sure if the claim needs further substantiation but, if so, I can certainly look for an alternative to the current one. I'm glad you brought it up, Ealdgyth. --Midnightdreary (talk) 00:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't the poeperplex a collection of student papers per this? As this is student work, I see no reason to cite it. Awadewit (talk) 17:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I've gone ahead and removed it entirely. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Looks pretty well written; it was a very interesting read throughout. Gary King ( talk ) 06:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Per WP:MOSDASH, don't offset quotes of less than 4 lines - there is a shorter one in the Illness section.
 * I assume you meant the blockquote? I never knew what the cut-off length was for this (and I couldn't find it in my cursory search of that page you linked) but I made the change. No problem. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The paragraph on Virginia's appearance seems a bit out of place, but I am unsure where to suggest it be moved.
 * I'd love further advice on this from any other editors. It was originally its own section but I tried to pull it into the main part of the article. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The paragraph beginning "While dying, Virginia asked her mother ..." does not flow very well. It seems to be a hodgepodge of different ideas stuck together (and two sentences in a row begin "She provided Virginia with"
 * I tried to fix this. Hope I did okay. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Virginia also showed Poe a letter she had concealed for years from Louisa Patterson," - makes it sound like she concealed the letter from Louisa Patterson. Why did Virginia conceal this from Poe?  Was Virginia also trying to keep Poe from his father?
 * This was incredibly unclear. It's not that she hid it but that she tucked it away. Wording was awful but I think it's much-improved. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "In 1875, the same year in which Virginia's body was reburied, the cemetery in which she lay was destroyed and her remains were almost forgotten" - was it the new or old cemetery that was destroyed? How was the cemetery destroyed? (Was this Westminster Hall?)  How long were the bones in a box under the bed?
 * That should have been the same year that Edgar was reburied, not Virginia. The bones in a box thing isn't clear in any of the sources I found, as far as length of time. It looks to be about two years, though. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Frances Osgood or Frances Sargent Osgodd? She is referred to both ways int he article
 * Not sure why that's so bad (how often should her middle name be repeated?) but I can change it. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ""hurrying her to a premature grave, " - I presume the "her" here is Virginia?
 * I tried to clarify this. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "moved to New York City by boat" - the by boat reference seems odd - can this be removed?
 * Removing the boat reference would necessitate the removal of the whole reference to "The Oblong Box", as that's sort of the point. --Midnightdreary (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Valentine wasnt going to throw away her bones, Edgar and Dennis were actually really good friends and was buried in the Valentine tomb, Para about half down page. "He would have rambled on, but I left him and went back to stand silent awhile over the bed of earth where the three so dear to each other sleep side by side. Mrs. Clemm was buried here in 1971; and the body of Virginia, brought from Fordham, where it had lain in the Valentine vault for thirty-seven years, placed beside them on the seventy-sixth anniversary of Poe’s birth, January 19th, 1885. At this ceremony, most solemn and impressive, there were present besides the officiating minister, Rev. J. S. B. Hodges, rector of St. Paul’s, and many friends and relatives of the family, Hon. Luther Marsh, President of the Park Commission, New York, and William Fearing Gill, the biographer of Poe, and the first to locate the time and place of his birth. “It is a remarkable incident that Mr. Dennis Valentine, who officiated at the sepulture of Virginia Poe in 1848, should deliver her relics to Mr. Gill in Person, and that George Spence, who conducted the burial of Poe in 1848, and afterward his re-interment under the monument in 1875, should also, as the official sexton of the Westminster Church, be called upon to witness the last rites offered to all that remains of his wife now that she is laid at his side after a long separation.” http://www.eapoe.org/papers/misc1851/18910401.htm  —Preceding unsigned comment added by JValentine13 (talk • contribs) 04:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to suggest that Valentine was throwing any bones away. As I understand it, the owners of the cemetery had sold the land and it was going to be developed. The officiators of the burial ground, unable to find next of kin, were going to dispose of Virginia's bones - but William Fearing Gill, as he claims, walked onto the scene at just the right time and claimed them himself. I have not seen sources that suggest that Valentine handed her bones to Gill directly (it would be quite odd; Gill was and is considered a bit of a whacko). The article does indeed state that Virginia was originally buried in the Valentine tomb, so no worries there. Your source is more than a little off - for example, Poe was not buried in 1848 (it would be very rude, considering he was not yet dead). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from this comment, so feel free to help me out. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support:
 * I enjoyed the article and learned a lot about Poe. I found it quite interesting. --Moni3 (talk) 22:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Why are you using her middle name in the title? Surely she's usually called Virginia, not Virginia Eliza? (If this is moved, leave the first line as it is.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one that originally created the article so I'm not sure what the justification was for the title. If it was me, I'd have called it Virginia Clemm as that's how many biographers and scholars refer to her, mostly to keep her distinct from Poe. I'm sure the article could easily be renamed, but I personally don't see much of a problem with this either way. I'd welcome other comments. --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Support A thorough discussion of Virginia Poe and her relationship with Edgar Allan Poe - thank you! I learned some fascinating details about the Poe family while reading this article. Just some minor details:


 * Image:PoeMarriage.JPG - What is the source for this image?
 * I'm not 100% sure on this one as I didn't take the picture myself but I believe it is a blown up reproduction at the Edgar Allan Poe Museum (Richmond). I will contact the original uploader and see if he/she is still active and can give further info. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is this a reliable link?
 * Yes and no. I think her theory is questionable at best, but she does have a book with this (and many other theories on Poe) coming out soon which lends some credibility to it all. Until I see another scholar corroborate her story, though, I don't think the information merits inclusion here beyond the external link. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I still feel that referring to the subject by her first name only ("Virginia") and the poet by his last name ("Poe") replicates the infantilizing attitude that Poe used towards his wife. I don't think we should do this, as an encyclopedia. I would suggest following the system used at Mary Shelley or at Zelda Fitzgerald.
 * I'm very torn on this one myself. I certainly don't mean to demean Virginia myself (though, oddly, colloquially, I do refer to them as "Virginia" and "Poe"). I considered your similar suggestion earlier and started making the change but stopped myself; I don't remember why. I will revisit the idea. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I see the featured topic coming into focus! Awadewit (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your thoughtful review and several copy edits. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.