Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Walt Disney World Railroad/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:26, 31 July 2017.

Walt Disney World Railroad

 * Nominator(s): Jackdude101 (talk) 01:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

This article is about the steam railroad attraction located in the Magic Kingdom theme park of Walt Disney World in the outskirts of Orlando, Florida. This is the sister attraction of the Disneyland Railroad located in the original Disneyland theme park in Anaheim, California. The railroad opened on October 1, 1971, and since then it has become one of the busiest attractions of its kind on the planet with an estimated 3.7 million passengers served every year. I re-wrote the entire article last year and after doing so, I successfully campaigned to get it upgraded to good article status. I feel that it satisfies the criteria to be upgraded further to featured article status, which, of course, will ultimately be decided by the reviewers. I look forward to reading your opinions and working together to make the Walt Disney World Railroad article a new piece of featured content on Wikipedia.  Jackdude 101  01:10, 7 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Comments from epicgenius: Based on a cursory examination, the article looks well-researched. Some points:


 * General comments:
 * After mentioning US$32,500 in the "Discovery of Mexico" section, any prices in US$ could just be mentioned with the dollar symbol, e.g. $8,000
 * The alt text seems good. It doesn't seem to correspond with the captions, however - and you may want to align the alt text more with the captions. This may be a problem for people with screen readers, since all they hear is a description of the image that otherwise has no relation to the article. E.g:  is parsed by screen readers as "a circus-themed train station" without any other context whatsoever.
 * If you know how to use Attached KML, you can also make a Google Maps KML file, upload it, and insert the template into the article. Then people will see the train's route on Google maps. I can help you with that. ❌
 * The route diagram template already present in the article serves that purpose, and adding an additional map, I feel, would be redundant. There is a link at the bottom of the article to a map of the railroad in OpenStreetMap, as well. Furthermore, there isn't a good spot to put something like this without having to remove some of the other images already in the article.  Jackdude 101  13:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Good point. I didn't see the OSM link earlier. However, the attached KML can be shown with no box at all, and allows the route to be shown on WikiMiniAtlas that is built into Wikipedia. But I respect your decision. epicgenius (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I read the Attached KML instructions and it actually looks pretty simple to do, and given that it will only create a simple box in the External links section, it will be out-of-the-way, also. I'm open to adding this, but let's wait a few months for updated satellite imagery of the Disneyland Railroad to become available, so both railroads can get these at the same time. Right now, one quarter of that railroad's route is completely torn up and surrounded by a sprawling construction site.  Jackdude 101  19:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. However, I have to warn that the KML file itself actually goes on a different page. In this case it would be uploaded to Template:Attached KML/Walt Disney World Railroad, were that page to be created. epicgenius (talk) 21:01, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In the "Discovery in Mexico" section:
 * was overseen by Mapo, Inc. (Retlaw Enterprises' research and manufacturing branch) Vice President and General Manager Roger E. Broggie. → was overseen by Roger E. Broggie, Vice President and General Manager of Mapo, Inc., Retlaw Enterprises' research and manufacturing branch. Or something similar. The parenthetical breaks up the sentence awkwardly.
 * The location was a railroad boneyard in Mérida, Yucatán, Mexico: add a comma after "Mexico"
 * In "Restoration in Florida":
 * with the space and equipment needed to accommodate full-size railroad equipment: the word "equipment" is repeated consecutively. I suggest replacing one instance of the word with a synonym.
 * Built in 1902, it was the oldest of the five locomotives purchased and after determining that it had too many problems to be rebuilt, the locomotive was stored out of use in California for a period before being sold to a locomotive broker.: This is a run on sentence and may be split. Additionally, "after determining that it had too many problems to be rebuilt" does not match the grammatical subject "the locomotive". Obviously you're saying that the restoration team determined the locomotive's problems, but the subject doesn't match.
 * In "Opening day to present day":
 * You should describe the geographical locations of Main Street USA, Frontierland, and Toontown (or New Fantasyland, last time I went) in relation to the park itself. As any Disney visitor knows, Main Street is in the south, Frontierland in the northwest, and New Fantasyland in the northeast - but this would be helpful to describe anyway.
 * In "Ride experience":
 * If the above comment in "Opening day to present day" is resolved, there's no need to put geographical compass directions here. Otherwise, relative directions should be placed.
 * After going through a tunnel through the Splash Mountain log flume attraction, the train's next stop is at Frontierland Station: the subject for "After going...attraction" should be "the train", not "the train's next stop."
 * close proximity is redundant. Just use "proximity". Interesting fact I just learned, BTW. I just assumed they launched the fireworks from Fantasyland behind the castle, near the carousel. In the same sentence, I suggest a change of "will not run" into "does not run" since this is a current service pattern.
 * In "rolling stock":
 * Each Walt Disney World Railroad locomotive when working on the line → When working on the line, each Walt Disney World Railroad locomotive or something similar.
 * I suggest you add a clear right before the table so you have a wider table. It may look weird on narrow devices, but the table could be wider.
 * In "block signals": No issues.
 * Interesting why, when the signal is green & yellow, the train must stop when 2 trains are operating, but it may proceed when 3 trains are operating. I guess it's to space the two trains out more and pack the three trains in. But anyway, this note is not necessary. As an avid fan of subways, I personally believe that Disney should install communications-based train control so they can run 4 trains at a time.
 * The railroad runs most efficiently when the number of trains operating and the number of stations are equal. The other reason why they have four locomotives, but only use three max at once, is so the locomotives can be rotated out of service routinely for maintenance. Steam locomotives are a pain-in-the-neck in this area.  Jackdude 101  13:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Overall, I think this is some very good work. I didn't check images or references, and being relatively new to commenting a featured article, I don't know if this is the right format to make my comments. epicgenius (talk) 03:58, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * All points addressed. Thank you for taking the time to go review the article's prose.  Jackdude 101  13:50, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Support epicgenius (talk) 16:08, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Image review
All files seem to have good ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:11, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * File:WDWRR - Lilly Belle 2016 1.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:(Ferrocarriles Unidos De Yucatan, No. 39) (14564184943).jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:Walt Disney World Railroad train.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:WDWRR - Fantasyland Station.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:WDWRR - Main Street, U.S.A. Station Entrance.jpg: License and use seem fine.
 * File:WDWRR - Frontierland Station Entrance.jpg, File:WDWRR - Fantasyland Station Entrance.jpg: Same as above, I don't think there are derivative work issues with this.
 * File:WDWRR - WDW Monorail 1.jpg: License and use seem fine for me.
 * File:Walter E Disney on track.jpg, File:Lilly Belle on track.jpg, File:Roger E Broggie on track.jpg, File:Roy O Disney on track.jpg: Lack of EXIF nonwithstanding, license and use seem fine for me.
 * File:WDWRR - Frontierland Station Block Signal Light.jpg: License and use seem fine for me.

I don't see many problems. There might be some people who need a wikilink but it seems I might be wrong since in one example there are three people with the same name. Anyways, good luck with this nomination. I'll support it.Tintor2 (talk) 20:19, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Comments by Tintor2


 * Comments from Aoba47
 * I will have to echo Tintor2’s comments above, and say that I cannot find much that needs revision. My only note would be to add WDWRR in parenthesis after Walt Disney World Railroad to make sure the acronym is clarified and spelled out in the body of the article as well as the lead. Otherwise, I completely support this; wonderful work! Aoba47 (talk) 02:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Have I missed a source review anywhere? If not, one can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Also, I'd like a little more commentary on criteria 1a, 1b and 1c for this one. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
 * A source review was requested on July 7. Two weeks ago, I messaged Imzadi1979, the source reviewer during the successful featured article review for the Disneyland Railroad, but I have not yet received a response.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 21:33, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Source Comments from Ceranthor

 * What makes ProgressCity a reliable source?
 * What makes ImagiNERDing a reliable source?
 * What makes SteamLocomotive a reliable source?
 * What makes TouringPlans.com a reliable source?
 * What makes Crazy for Disney World a reliable source?
 * What makes Theme Park Insider a reliable source?
 * What makes Railfanning.org a reliable source?
 * Formatting stuff looks ok.  ceran  thor 13:56, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking the time to review this article's sources. I removed the ProgessCity, ImagiNERDing, SteamLocomotive.com, and Crazy for Disney World sources entirely. Most of the info they were citing was either already cited by other sources or the info cited was unimportant. TouringPlans.com has been publishing tourist guides about Walt Disney World in print since 1985, per this webpage: . Theme Park Insider and Railfanning.org have been recognized by more well-known publications according to these webpages: ; . Let me know whether the sources are satisfactory now.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 19:52, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * All fine except I'm still not sure Railfanning.org meets the reliable source criteria. Mention by a few newspapers doesn't convince me that it's reliable.  ceran  thor 17:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I removed the Railfanning.org source and replaced it with one other source already present in the article that references the same info. I believe that resolves everything.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 19:39, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I will try to look over the prose today or tomorrow.  ceran  thor 19:48, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Prose Comments from Ceranthor

 * with three train stations in different areas - kind of vague to just say different areas... different areas of the park? I'd just rewrite this sentence to make that more clear
 * The rail line, built by WED Enterprises, is operated with four historic steam locomotives originally built by Baldwin Locomotive Works - Any reason you can't just say "operates with", thus avoiding the passive voice?
 * The rail line, built by WED Enterprises, is operated with four historic steam locomotives originally built by Baldwin Locomotive Works - try to substitute a second word for built, don't like seeing the same word twice in the same sentence
 * serving 3.7 million passengers each year. - On average? I see this appears again later in the article so some clarification would be nice ❌
 * The source for this piece of info, despite mentioning it twice, does not specify that this is an average figure outright. I would think that it is an average figure, as they did not specify that it was for any specific year.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 23:19, 29 July 2017 (UTC)


 * The five locomotives and spare parts acquired by Roger Broggie, in order to receive the aesthetic and mechanical restorations necessary to run on the planned Walt Disney World Railroad (WDWRR), were sent to the Tampa Ship Repair & Dry Dock Company in Tampa, Florida.[6] - I'd switch the in order bit to the end of the sentence for sentence flow
 * The original, dilapidated boilers of the four locomotives built by Baldwin Locomotive Works were replaced by brand-new, smaller boilers built by Dixon Boiler Works.[9][10] - When something is outdated, it's usually replaced "with" not replaced by something else
 * Their worn-out wood and steel cabs were replaced with new fiberglass cabs, and they were given new tenders, which utilized the trucks from the original tenders.[5][9] - I understand that this sentence is clunky for clarity, but it's a bit too clunky as it stands. I'd try to keep the original meaning without repeating tenders or cabs
 * they were not able to restore the Pittsburgh Locomotive and Car Works locomotive acquired along with them. - Who is they?
 * It was stored out of use in California for a period before being sold to a locomotive broker.[10] - Might be worth mentioning who if you know ❌
 * The source material does not identify the locomotive broker (it's a miracle that the information you do see is available at all, as Disney tends to be very secretive about these sorts of things).  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 23:19, 29 July 2017 (UTC)


 * During construction of the Splash Mountain attraction and the current Frontierland Station, the WDWRR was temporarily named Backtrack Express - Was it named or renamed?

This is an informative and interesting article, and I'll be happy to support once my nitpicky comments are resolved. Great work!  ceran  thor 21:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * All points addressed. On a related note, do you believe the article is comprehensive?  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 23:19, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll admit that I'm confused why so much more information seems to be available on the Disneyland railroad. Have there been any noteworthy incidents at the WDW Railroad, and is there any info you can add to the ride experience section?  ceran  thor 01:53, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * There are multiple reasons why there is more info available for the Disneyland Railroad (DRR) than the Walt Disney World Railroad (WDWRR). One reason is that the DRR is covered better in the reliable source material at my disposal. As an example, in the Michael Broggie book (pretty much the "Bible of the Disney train universe"), which I used heavily to reference both articles, 68 pages are dedicated specifically to the DRR, while there are only 18 pages dedicated to the WDWRR. Another reason is that Walt Disney himself was personally involved with the DRR's development from start to finish, and even drove the trains on occasion. However, he died before construction of Walt Disney World even began. Besides having virtually no direct connection to Walt Disney himself, the WDWRR's rolling stock and route have remained virtually unchanged since it opened in 1971. In regards to WDWRR incidents, I scoured the Internet for any mention of major incidents, but found none. The Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services produces a quarterly report on all theme park incidents in Florida, but the worst that the WDWRR has experienced within the past few decades is a handful of reported cases of dizziness. Source: . Also, the WDWRR's Ride experience section is shorter that the DRR's Ride experience section because it's a much simpler affair. Three stations instead of four, no dioramas, and so forth. I believe I covered all of the highlights in that section. The only area where the WDWRR seems to be more complex than the DRR is its block signal system, hence the separate section for that in its article.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 03:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
 * In that case, I do think the article is comprehensive, and that the prose is up to snuff. So I'll support.  ceran  thor 21:21, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Nominator comments
To recap, the article has completed an image review, a source review, two prose reviews, and has four confirmed supporters. Unless there is anything outstanding that you can find, it appears that this review is ready to close and the that this article should be upgraded to FA status.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 22:14, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.