Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Water Rail/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 17:10, 30 May 2011.

Water Rail

 * Nominator(s):  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

My previous Rallidae FAC was for a species, the Zapata Rail, about which virtually nothing is known, including whether it still exists. It was good to be in the position with this nomination of being able to decide what to leave out, rather than scratching around for any crumbs of info. Thanks to Shyamal for help with the eastern indicus subspecies  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Sources comment: Sources and citations appear impeccable. Spotchecks difficult because of the technical nature of the material, but no problems indicated. Exemplary. Brianboulton (talk) 08:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks for checking Brian, I'm blushing  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * How do the two bacterial infections mentioned affect the Water Rail? If more could be said about these infections, then the bacteria theme could form a small paragraph and therefore be separated from the paragraph on the larger parasites. Snowman (talk) 12:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On checking, the rail was not a species carrying C. psittaci, so removed now. The research just has the Water Rail as one of many affected species, but Borellia is described as rare, and wasn't present in throat swabs, so there is no indication that any of the birds very obviously ill. There is nothing anywhere I can find about the effects of this Borrelia bacterium specifically on water rails  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Perhaps some details of the life cycle of the nematode, Gnathostoma spinigerum, with specific reference to the Water Rail should be included to avoid over simplification. There are other species of the genus Gnathostoma. Can I presume from the article that there is only one of these species that relevant to the Water Rail. Snowman (talk) 12:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added the first and third stage hosts to the text. The article only mentions Gnathostoma spinigerum, and I haven't found any mention of other species, so I don't know if they are relevant or not.  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Do Water Rails contribute to the infestation of freshwater cyclopses with Gnathostoma spinigerum, and therefore provide a possible route for infected cyclopses to be consumed in untreated drinking water by humans? Could infected cyclopses be consumed by small fish which are in turn eaten by ducks and mammals that could go into the human food chain. With this in mind, I am not sure if this line of the article is logical; "The rail is unlikely to be a source of human gnathostomiasis, because ..." . Snowman (talk) 12:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * To get infected you have to consume the live nematode, either, as you say, by drinking water contaminated with the cyclops first host, or by a eating raw or insufficiently cooked secondary host, especially freshwater fish, which is often eaten raw in the two main countries for this disease. You would have to eat near-raw water rail to get infected by that bird, which is unlikely to say the least. Water rails do not contribute to infecting the cyclopses, which is only done via the final carnivora host  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The Water Rail is omnivorous and eats fish, possibly fish infested with the nematode. Does this make the Water Rail a final host of the nematode? Snowman (talk) 21:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the nematode remains in its larval form irrespective of host until it gets to a carnivore, usually a cat or dog. Only then doe it mature in the stomach and release eggs in the faeces to start the cycle again  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I see. The parasite is fastidious. I think that a little more explanation of some of the key stages of the parasite would make the section more readable. I would probably be able to find my orientation on these nematodes as soon as I have found my main parasitology book. Snowman (talk) 07:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked a bit to make the life cycle clearer,I wouldn't want much more detail, since the article is about the bird, and the nematode has its own page.  Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  10:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


 * How does the Water Rail become infected with Borrelia burgdorferi? In mammals it is a tick-borne infection, so I wonder if the Water Rail's ticks infect birds. Is there a Water Rail tick that can bite humans to cause Lyme disease? I would like the article to quantify the risk of Water Rails directly or indirectly transmitting Lyme disease to humans. Can I presume that Water Rail contribute to maintaining a population of wild Borrelia in birds and mammals? Snowman (talk) 12:20, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've clarified that it's a tick-borne infection in the rail too. The only Ixoides tick that I know bites water rails is I. frontalis, which I think is a largely avian tick that is unlikely to bite humans, and I don't know if it's a carrier of Borrelia anyway. The source makes it clear that there is little information about this bacterium in birds, although Mallards deliberately infected with the disease remained unsymptomatic. The listed reservoir species are pheasants, seabirds and migratory passerines. Only three individual rails were involved in the research, and only one was positive,, so not much to go on <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Images are unproblematic, captions are fine. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks for image review, Nikkimaria, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Units Lightmouse (talk) 20:02, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It says "25.8mm". There should be a space before the unit name. It also looks like excessive precision to me. I'd recommend '26 mm'.
 * It says "15.6 million km2 (6 million mi2)". A million expressed as a fraction requires a mental calculation to work out what 0.1 of a million is. I'd rather just have the plain numeric value. I'd also be inclined to use the convert template to sort out all the formatting as follows (look at this in edit mode): '15600000 km2'. It's not a big issue, feel free to disagree.
 * thanks for comments, I've inserted the missing nbsp and rounded as suggested. I'm less convinced by the "millions" comment, I've used that style in many facs without problems, but no big deal, so changed that too. For reasons I won't bore you with, I dislike the convert template. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  05:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The space isn't a big deal for me, but is mentioned at the official SI website, in 'ISO 31-0', and in MOS.
 * Precision is part art, part science so 25.8 mm versus 26 mm was just my opinion.
 * There are fractional millions in Wikipedia like "0.10 million" and "0.358 million" and they look so weird that I question it's use. The '15.6 million' isn't so bad, particularly because of the two significant figures to the left of the decimal. Use million if you prefer.
 * I opposed the convert template for a long time. I then drank from the poisoned well (parable of poisoned well at ) and now think it's faults are worth tolerating. But it's only a tool. If the reader sees the right thing, it doesn't matter so much how it's achieved.
 * Keep up the good work Lightmouse (talk) 09:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Generally great. A couple of thoughts:
 * "The binomial name is, of course, the Latin equivalent of the English "Water Rail"." Yep, it's obvious, but I am not certain "of course" is so Wikipedia.
 * OK, done


 * Para 2 of taxonomy could be smoothed. Not wild about the bold, and the tenses are a little funny.
 * Tweaked, any better?


 * "the dark barring on the undertail undertail of this species is"
 * Sigh... how did I miss that?


 * Perhaps a map showing the ranges of the subspecies? Perhaps I am spoilt after seeing the likes of File:Painted Turtle Distribution alternate.svg, but it would be interesting.
 * I thought about that, but decided against. The three main breeding ranges are fairly obvious, and adding subspecies dividing lines, and text or a key, makes the map cluttered. It aslo gives an illusion of accuracy which is unwarranted given the the lack of detailed knowledge of the Asian breeding ranges. My sources do not show the ssp on their maps either


 * Is R. a. hibernans completely extinct? It's not clear. (See para 2 of the distribution section)
 * Clarified, the birds outside Iceland came from that breeding population, so all gone <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I will read the rest of the article later. J Milburn (talk) 21:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks for review so far, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  06:15, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Some more thoughts-
 * "A Welsh study suggested that winter territories overlap" What does that mean?
 * changed to individual winter territories overlap, with each bird using a significant proportion of the reed bed &mdash; is that clearer?


 * "in the lava" Not actual lava, presumably?
 * Well, yes actually, lava refers to the solid as well as the liquid, but changed to solidified lava for clarity


 * In the predators and parasites section, don't be scared to link to articles on species. Redlinks are not a bad thing.
 * redlinked, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to turn blue


 * "The louse Philopterus ralli and a nematode Strongyloides avium, have been found on the subspecies R. a. indicus." Lose the comma?
 * lost


 * "Water Rails have been eaten for thousands of years" Specify by humans?
 * added


 * Seems to be a bit too much details about the minks- are they of particular note in relation to Water Rails? If so, it's not clear.
 * the introduced mink exterminated an entire subspecies, and came close to clearing the Hebrides. It's a particularly potent threat to wetland creatures in Europe (eg 90% losses of Water Voles in the UK) since the only native predator so well adapted to wetlands is the otter, which specialises in fish. As opposed to the harriers etc, losses to mink, which kills more than it can eat, place an unsustainable burden on this and other marsh species. I thought it was worth explaining how it spread through the Scottish islands, but if you think the history is unnecessary, it could go.

Generally looking great. J Milburn (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks again for review and comments <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  13:15, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Support (providing everything else checks out, which I am sure it will). Nice work, as ever. J Milburn (talk) 16:29, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks for support and kind words


 * Support (moral or otherwise) as birds wikiproject co-member. I read through it and nothing jumped out as needing improvement prose-wise. It looks like this one came together really well. Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for review, kind words and support, <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  14:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Support, with a few comments:
 * If it is so closely related to the African and Madagascar rails, how can it be more closely related to Gallirallus than to other Rallus?
 * I don't think that's what I said, the text states that it is ''the most closely related of its genus to the Pacific Gallirallus rails
 * If the genus is monophyletic, how can it be more closely related to Gallirallus than the other species are? Ucucha 12:11, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I read the source as meaning that the whole Gallirallus genus diverged from an ancestral Water Rail that spread from Asia into the Pacific, presumably changing enough to become a different genus. I'm no geneticist, if what Taylor says is wrong/unclear/misleading, I'll take out that non-essential comment.


 * Why do you use the Catalan "Eivissa" instead of the common English form "Ibiza"?
 * Its the version used in the (English language) source, so I've followed their usage, but it's linked to Ibiza


 * "vagrants have been found in the Azores, Madeira, Mauritania, the Arctic, Greenland and Southeast Asia"—the text previously says parts of Southeast Asia (e.g., Borneo) are within its normal range
 * Good point, changed to south of the normal range in Southeast Asia
 * In Indonesia, that is? That seems the only part of Southeast Asia that is south of its normal range on Borneo. Ucucha 12:11, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, on checking, it's just Malaysia and Vietnam, so changed to that. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  15:14, 29 May 2011 (

Ucucha 11:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC) UTC)
 * Thanks for review, comments and support <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  12:09, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.