Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Werner Mölders/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 17:18, 15 September 2009.

Werner Mölders

 * Nominator(s): MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it is well researched. I am interested in anything that helps me improve the article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose (1a) :Comment I am sorry to say that article's prose is a long way short of Featured Article standard. It looks as though a great deal of excellent research has taken place, and there is no reason why this article should not develop to the required standard. It is not there yet, however. I wonder whether, before nominating this, the nominator checked the FA criteria to see whether the article conformed to these? The following is a sample of points taken from the lead alone:-
 * The explanation of the term "flying ace" is inappropriate, given that the term is explained in the immediately previous link.
 * Well I don't mind changing it here, but putting in the way it stands now was the outcome of a previous review. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Third sentence needs reconstruction, and splitting. I suggest: "Initially rejected by the Luftwaffe because of air-sickness, he became the leading German flying ace of the Spanish Civil War with 14 confirmed aerial victories. He later became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories."
 * It is a little confusing to read that two different organisations honoured him in a number of different ways, and that "the decision" was revoked in 2005. What exactly does "the decision" refer to?
 * There are various problems in the second paragraph.
 * Non sequitur: "As a successor to Adolf Galland and squadron leader of the 3. Staffel (fighter squadron) of Jagdgruppe 88 (fighter group), he flew the Messerschmitt Bf 109."
 * Tortuous sentence: "During World War II he became the first pilot to claim 20 aerial victories earning him the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes), the first fighter pilot to earn the award, only to be shot down and taken prisoner of war one week later."
 * Third paragraph
 * Odd phraseology. e.g. "shortly later"
 * Wrong grammar: "Flying as a passenger in a Heinkel He 111 the return flight to Berlin got into a heavy thunderstorm and one of the engines of the aircraft failed."

These are examples. Someone needs to go through the whole article to refine and polish the prose. I am frankly a little surprised that the article has apparently gone through GA, peer review and a MilHist A-class review, and yet these problems are still evident. Brianboulton (talk) 18:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Later:I see that the lead section has been more or less completely rewritten, so my earlier points are superseded. However, I found quite a few prose problems with the revised lead:-
 * I suggest that the first two sentences are combined, and the language tweaked, to give: "Werner Mölders (18 March 1913 – 22 November 1941) was a German Luftwaffe pilot who became the leading German fighter ace of the Spanish Civil War, and the first pilot in aviation history to claim 100 aerial victories."
 * Second paragraph reads as though the Battle of Britain was part of the Spanish Civil War. Needs to say something like: "After the outbreak of the Second World War, Mölders fought in the Battle of Britain and was the first pilot to claim 40 victories." The jump in the next paragraph to 68 victories in the next sentence is confusing, so perhaps you should say he was the first pilot to claim "in excess of 40 victories."
 * "Mölders and the JG 51..." You need to explain what the JG 51 was, thus: "Mölders and his unit, the JG 51,..."  done
 * My understanding is that Operation Barbarossa began on 22nd June, so "By 22 June 1941, he had 72 aerial victories" is a bit confusing. Does this mean; "By the end of the first day of this operation he had increased his aerial victories total to 72;"? fixed
 * Is "banned" the right word to use here? It carries the connotation of punishment. Perhaps "prevented"? Also, the "although" at the beginning of the sentence is redundant and should be removed. fixed
 * Suggest you say "...from flying further combat missions...", and delete "as" before Inspector General.fixed
 * "He was only 28", especially as a discrete short sentence, carries a strong POV. If you want to mention his age, omit the "only", and weave it in to the previous sentence: "Prevented from flying further combat missions for propaganda reasons, at the age of 28 he was promoted to Oberst, and appointed Inspector General of Fighters." fixed, good suggestion!
 * Bring the 22 November date forward, and avoid over-short sentence, thus: "On 22 November 1941, on the flight to Berlin, the Heinkel He 111 in which he was travelling as a passenger encountered a heavy thunderstorm, during which of the aircraft's engines failed. While attempting to land, the Henkel crashed at Breslau, killing Mölders and two others." fixed
 * Suggest "each honoured him" fixed
 * Not a prose point, but I see you have not used no-break spaces, as recommended by MOS. See WP:NBSP  thanks....in progress....

I don't think I will have the time to go through the rest of the prose with the attention I have given to the lead. What a pity the article didn't come to Peer Review. However I'll do my best to check it out and suggest further improvements. Brianboulton (talk) 18:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking again. The article was peer reviewed please check WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Werner Mölders. MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you have fixed most of my new list of lead points. I still think the phrasing at the beginning could be improved, and it still not clear that the Battles of Britain and France were Second World War affairs. I have now read through the "Early life and education" section, and was quite disappointed to find many problems, in a section which I undertand has been subject to "stringent copy editing".  Below is a list of these points. I don't like sounding negative, but I can't agree that the prose is yet up to FA standard. I believe it needs  a full copyedit from an uninvolved, competent editor who can devote considerable time to getting the prose right. I'd do it myself, but I simply don't have the time.

Brianboulton (talk) 22:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Early life and education section
 * The section title is inappropriate, since most of the text is concerned with his early military career. I suggest you retitle it "Childhood, education and early career". done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There are numerous untranslated German terms, some linked, others not. This makes reading tedious. In the latter part of the section you start adding English translations, which is helpful. However, I think that some of the German formulations are unnecessary and should be dropped. For example, "Mölders joined the II./Infanterie-Regiment 2..." could become "Molders joined the Second Infantry Regiment..." There are many instances in the section where this could be done; this is, after all, English Wikipedia. Otherwise I sugest you show English translations/equivalents. being done  JN  466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "a Leutnant of the Reserves " - Why not "A Reserve Leutnant? done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Same sentence: the formation is clumsy, with the semicolon. The sentence should begin "After his father", and the semcolon replaced with a comma. done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "From 1919 to 1931, Mölders attended the Grundschule (Elementary school) and "Saldria-Gymnasium" in Brandenburg an der Havel." This reads as though he was attending two schools at the same time. Why are there quotes around "Saldria-Gymnasium"? I also think the repetition of Brandenburg an der Havel is unnecessary. done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "...and expressed a desire to become an officer." Specify "an officer in tha armed forces" done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Date range (6 February 1934–31 December 1934) at end of sentence, should be incorporated into the text. It should be made clear what these dates refer to. done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "...he suffered continuously from nausea and vomiting" "Continuously" means without interruption or interval. I think you probably mean "continually" ( repeated at regular intervals) done, well spotted  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Overlong, tortuous sentence: "After completing the next phase of his military pilot's training, from 1 January 1935 to 30 June 1935 at the Kampffliegerschule (combat flying school) in Tutow and at the Jagdfliegerschule (fighter pilot school) at Schleißheim near Munich, he received the newly created Pilot's Badge of the Luftwaffe on 21 May 1935." Suggest this is reorganised, and split into two shorter sentences. done  JN  466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Remilitarisation" does not require capitalising. The sentence would read better with the date at the start, thus: "On 7 March 1936, during the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, Mölders...." done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Mölders met Luise Baldauf, whom he eventually married..." In this case, it is "who", not "whom" you are mistaken: it would be "who married him", but "whom he married"; "he" is the subject, "whom" is the object  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Avoid repetition: "...numerous promotions were handed out, including Mölders' promotion..." done  JN 466  01:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: I have struck the oppose, in view of the good work in response to my comments, above, and as I probably won't be able to get round to a detailed study of the rest. The article will make it eventually, I'm sure. Brianboulton (talk) 14:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'll go through the article and do a copyedit.  JN 466  10:39, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The timeline in the third paragraph of the Early Life section needs attention. We have him beginning training at two different schools on 6 February 1934. Could you have a look?  JN 466  12:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed, good spot! MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: the content of this article is superb, and well documented. I agree that the English is "sluggish" but it is easily fixed. When JN is done with a copy edit, I'll do a second one, this weekend probably, and that should take care of most of the language issues. I hope we could encourage people whose native language is not English to offer their knowledge to the english encyclopedia.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Update I've completed one round of copyedits, and worked on a few minor content queries with MisterBee1966. The language should be adequate now; Auntieruth is doing further work on it to polish it further.  JN 466  22:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Stringent copy editing has been done. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text is done; thanks. Alt text is present, but has some problems :
 * Several images lack alt text; see the "alt text" button at the upper right of this review page. I expect that the two instances of Image:Balkenkreuz.svg should be marked with " " as per WP:ALT .
 * Several phrases in the alt text cannot be verified by a non-expert who is looking only at the images, and need to be reworded or moved to the caption or whatever, as per WP:ALT . These include "Schwarm formation and cross-over turn", "Major Dr. Wenzel (Mölders' aide), Adolf Galland, Werner Mölders and Theo Osterkamp", "Arthur Laumann", "Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves", the "victory" in "victory marks", and "Werner Mölders wearing his Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves".
 * Some phrases duplicate the caption and should be removed, as per WP:ALT . These include "Werner Mölders Messerschmitt Bf 109 F-2, Stab/JG 51, in June 1941" and some of the phrases noted in the previous bullet.
 * Eubulides (talk) 05:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am in the process of revising the alt texts to make them descriptive of the images.  JN 466  12:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Alt texts revised/added, pls review.  JN 466  14:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, that was a very good job. I particularly liked the clear expression of the aerial maneuver. I consider the job done, but if you'd like to improve it further you might consider making some of the descriptions shorter, removing phrases that provide relatively little useful info about the topic of the article; phrases such as "Black-and-white photograph of", or the detailed description of the birthday party table. You can move the full-length detailed description to the image page itself. Eubulides (talk) 21:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I noted that WP:ALT says not to put "drawing of", "photograph of" and so on. In this case I thought it might be helpful to convey the feeling that these are contemporary photographs taken 70 or 75 years ago, but I'm still in two minds about it. I'll shorten the descriptions a little further and see if the longer versions can come in useful on the image description page. Thanks for the feedback and ideas. -- JN 466  22:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links not checked with the link checker tool, as it was misbehaving. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Links checked with link checker tool. All are in good, working order.
 * pictures checked with alt text tool. All have the required alt text
 * No dabs here. Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support, with the caveat that I've now been up and down the article multiple times and have made well over a hundred edits to it: I am no longer an uninvolved party. (I wasn't involved or aware of this article before it came to FAC though.) From Friday, I'll be without regular Internet access for a week. I'll check back in tomorrow and will check in at the end of next week to see if the nomination is still open and anything else needs to be done. Good luck with the nomination in the meantime.  JN 466  22:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support This is an informed, and interesting article.  Like JN, I make the caveat (for the sake of transparency) that I have been through the article several times, made significant copy edits (primarily focused on fixing "Germanisms") and made 86 edits.  The editor of this article is not a native speaker of English, consequently there were initially some issues with the English.  As far as I am concerned, these are resolved.  There may be other commentators who quibble with minor points here and there; these can be easily dealt with.  I encourage the promotion of this article.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 17:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I can confirm no copyright issues with any of the images on this page. Stifle (talk) 20:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Support Made a few tweaks to prose but overall I think this reads extremely well, is detailed and objective, well-sourced and -illustrated, and deserves the bronze star - well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Well done. — AustralianRupert (talk) 10:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Just had a first sweep, will have another detailed one later today. This stood out at me: In 1998, the German Parliament, made on the occasion of the 61st Anniversary of the bombing of the Spanish town of Guernica, during the Spanish Civil War. It doesn't make sense. What did they made? In general, the article looks good. Woody (talk) 11:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed! I think this should do it now MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.