Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/What Is and What Should Never Be (Supernatural)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:43, 16 February 2010.

What Is and What Should Never Be (Supernatural)

 * Nominator(s): Ω  pho  is  05:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is up to FA standards. Ω pho  is  05:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support: Nicely written article! ATC . Talk 12:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

There are a few "as" sentences that should be rearranged so they're more direct.


 * "Once the story was fully developed, Tucker was given free rein over the script; this surprised her, as she expected Kripke to "be more of a backseat driver than he was"."
 * What would you suggest? Ω  pho  is  01:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * " However, John Winchester, who died in the second season premiere, remained dead, as Kripke felt that Dean would realize something was amiss if he was granted a "perfect dream world"."
 * Changed to: However, Kripke felt that Dean would realize something was amiss if he was granted a "perfect dream world", so John Winchester, who died in the second season premiere, remained dead. Ω  pho  is  01:06, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "As Jessica was an integral aspect of the storyline, production of the episode was adjusted to accommodate the actress."
 * Changed to: With Jessica being an integral aspect of the storyline, production of the episode was adjusted to accommodate the actress. Ω  pho  is  01:06, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "As is typical of the series,[11] the episode also featured rock songs.[12]"
 * Would "Following the series' tradition, the episode also featured rock songs." work? Ω  pho  is  01:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This sentence sounds funny. "Kripke's favorite was a group shot of the Winchesters wearing matching Christmas sweaters, as it "cracks [him] up to no avail"."
 * I removed it. It doesn't really add anything to the article, IMO. Ω  pho  is  01:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyways, looks pretty good. I'll give more comments later. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 15:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice fixes!


 * ""Once the story was fully developed, Tucker was given free rein over the script; this surprised her, as she expected Kripke to "be more of a backseat driver than he was".""


 * Could be:


 * "Once the story was fully developed, Tucker was given free rein over the script. This surprised her because she expected Kripke to "be more of a backseat driver than he was"."
 * Done. Ω  pho  is  18:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll make more comments soon. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:14, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * This sentence is still indirect: "With Jessica being an integral aspect of the storyline, production of the episode was adjusted to accommodate the actress."


 * Maybe: "Because Jessica was an integral aspect of the storyline, the production schedule was adjusted to accommodate her." or whatever. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:20, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, but I kept the last part as "the actress". Jessica is the character, so your version implies that the schedule was adjusted to accommodate the character instead of Palicki. Ω  pho  is  18:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

"As David Nutter was one of the first directors that Kripke had gotten to know well and had learned a lot from" - Indirect "as" sentence should be made for forceful. "gotten to know well" is also a bit informal. I'd also replace that sentences semicolon with a period; it's pretty long.
 * Do you have any suggestions? Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe "One of the first directors Kripke had become acquainted with and learned from was David Nutter..." - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Ω  pho  is  03:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"Production attempted to match the camera angles" - Maybe "The crew attempted"
 * Fixed. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"Much discussion and details were put into each one" - Sounds funny.
 * How so? Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It just sounds bad. Not sure what writing rule is falls under. When I say something sounds funny, I mean rewrite it.  Mabye "Each was discussed, and had details addded..." or something. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Ω  pho  is  03:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"one of the lowest ratings for the season." - Is that OR, or should the ref be moved to follow it?
 * It's based on the ratings from the season 2 page. Ratings there are done one-by-one, so the only way I know of to cite it would be to make 21 other citations. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"Actresses Samantha Smith and Adrianne Palicki were welcomed back" - Maybe something about them being "a treat"? Anyways, "welcomed back" sounds a bit odd.
 * Done. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"Tom Burns of UGO deemed the episode "one of the strongest hours of Supernatural all season, feeling that "the actors really stepped up their game...and sold every moment"." - MIssing quote?
 * Fixed. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"He especially noted the "unapologetically emotional"" - "especially" is odd.
 * How so? Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It sounds like OR. That you are personally ranking the things that he noted. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Ω  pho  is  03:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

"he feels that Ackles' "hardcore acting chops"" - "felt"?
 * Fixed. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

"Writer Raelle Tucker won the Constellation Award for "Best Overall 2007 Science Fiction Film or Television Script" for her work on the episode.[18]" - Single sentence paras should be merged or removed.
 * Previous FAC's I've done have specified that single sentences that are unrelated should be separate. Ω  pho  is  18:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It can probably be fit in somewhere. Maybe
 * In its original broadcast, "What Is and What Should Never Be" was viewed by an estimated 3.11 million viewers,[14] one of the lowest ratings for the season. Despite this, writer Raelle Tucker won the Constellation Award for "Best Overall 2007 Science Fiction Film or Television Script" for her work on the episode, and the episodes garnered positive reviews from critics."
 * Also, "and the episodes garnered positive reviews from critics". should episodes be plural? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed both. Ω  pho  is  03:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Looking good. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 18:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Support - Nice work. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 06:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. I wasn't sure how to do it with the multiple image template, but it's been added now. Ω  pho  is  18:08, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem; and thanks. Eubulides (talk) 01:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. Needs some rewriting/revision for clarity. See the following examples:
 * " What Is and What Should Never Be" is the twentieth episode of the paranormal drama TV series Supernatural's second season on The CW, and was first broadcast on May 3, 2007." —A big first sentence for the reader to chunk.


 * I separated it into two sentences. Ω  pho  is  18:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "The narrative follows series protagonist Dean Winchester (Jensen Ackles) as a djinn seemingly fulfills his greatest desire: that his mother was not killed." —Does the "as" refer to the character, or is the djinn a separate entity?


 * Changed to: "The narrative follows series protagonist Dean Winchester (Jensen Ackles) as he finds himself in an alternate reality after a djinn seemingly fulfills his greatest desire: that his mother had not been killed when he was a child."
 * I've split into two sentences to avoid the confusing and repetitious pronouns. Revert if it's not correct.Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That works, though I made a couple minor edits. Ω  pho  is  04:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Though he finds happiness in this new world" —Which new world?


 * I think the previous revision fixes this. Ω  pho  is  18:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Try making it more active: "Initially he is happy in the new world until it becomes apparent that his previous work as a hunter of supernatural creatures has been undone. At that point he rejects the alternate reality, and finds a method to bring himself back." I'm not sure this is correct either, but essentially, the stacking of information in the sentences is hard for a reader who is not familiar with the topic. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed to: "Dean is happy in the new world until it becomes apparent that his previous work as a hunter of supernatural creatures has been undone. At that point he rejects the alternate reality, and attempts to find a method to bring himself back." Ω  pho  is  04:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * " Dean realizes that all the good he and his brother Sam (Jared Padalecki) did as hunters of supernatural creatures has been undone, and he rejects the new reality." —Needs a rewrite. What is the "new reality"?


 * See above. Ω  pho  is  18:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, stopped after the third sentence in the lead. Will return later to have a look at other sections. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Neutral. The prose can be tightened throughout and made more active. I see the article is B-class. Have you considered taking it through GAN before nominating for FA? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:23, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * From my experience with GAN, mostly only glaring errors are found, and it is only the opinion of one person. This article has already been copy-edited twice, and I think the FAC will help find any other things needed to be fixed. Ω  pho  is  00:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you give another example of something you feel needs to be tightened, so I can do a run-through and fix any other similar things? Ω  pho  is  00:58, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind, this is only a single example but here's a sentence I had to read twice to understand (and that's when you lose your reader!): "Finding inspiration in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Normal Again", in which demonic poison causes the character Buffy Summers to have hallucinations in which she is a mental patient who has been imagining the series' storylines,[3] Kripke loved the idea of "rebooting Supernatural" and placing the series' characters into a different world." Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll go through the article again later today. Ω  pho  is  18:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For your example, do you think this would work: The Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Normal Again", in which demonic poison causes the character Buffy Summers to hallucinate that she is a mental patient who has been imagining the series' storylines, served as inspiration for Kripke; he loved the idea of "rebooting Supernatural" and placing the series' characters into a different world. Ω  pho  is  18:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Or this: The Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Normal Again", in which hallucinogenic poison makes the character Buffy Summers suspect that the series' storylines are merely her own elaborate hallucinations as a catatonic mental patient, served as inspiration for Kripke; he loved the idea of "rebooting Supernatural" and placing the series' characters into a different world. Ω  pho  is  18:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If those don't work, I can do a blockquote of Kripke's comment. Ω  pho  is  19:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Spend some time with User:Tony1/How to improve your writing—in my view the best writing guide in Wikipedia. This isn't really the place for sentence-by-sentence copyediting, and I'm afraid we're starting down that road. I think you'll find Tony's suggestions helpful. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. This article contains invalid HTML, as mentioned in the W3C report for the article. Can you please fix this? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 08:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What is invalid about it? Sorry, I don't understand the report. Ω  pho  is  16:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It contains duplicate citation IDs, which break internal wikilinks. Please see Help:Markup validation . Eubulides (talk) 19:24, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Ω  pho  is  22:07, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, it looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 04:34, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Source comments Everything fine. Well done for steadily improving. RB88 (T) 00:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: I've copyedited a little bit, despite making some gramatical mistakes, which were fixed immediately. In my opinion, I don't see much else the article needs to pass WP:FAC, apart from maybe some minor fixes, if any. ATC . Talk 21:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * A few nitpicks as requested:
 * I suggest links to characters and actors in the infobox's caption.
 * Though I'm all for short plots, one paragraph, really? It comes off quite shocking to me and gives me the impression it is clumped. Can you at least break it off into two paragraphs?
 * Restates who Kripke is in case the read neglected to read the lead prior to reading the "Writing" section.
 * Colon between "script" and "This" (?)
 * In "Filming:" "Principal photography for the episode took place in Vancouver, British Columbia."
 * In "Reception:" I've always found "Conversely" seems better grammatically then "Despite this" or "Despite of."
 *  The Flash  I am Jack's   complete   lack of surprise 02:19, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done to all. Ω  pho  is  05:07, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: Issues addressed, everything looks great.  The Flash  I am Jack's   complete   lack of surprise 20:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.