Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Garrow/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 18:46, 12 January 2010.

William Garrow

 * Nominator(s): Ironholds (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I optimistically feel it meets the requirements set. A note: I appreciate the relatively few sources used in the article. This is because there are relatively few; he was forgotten for most of the 19th and 20th centuries, and only academically "rediscovered" in 1991. There are a few additional sources identified in the ODNB I could use, but I can't get access to them, it seems. Ironholds (talk) 17:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * For information on Garrow, see Landsman, "The Rise of the Contentious Spirit," 561- 64. Didn't you find anything useful in "The origins of adversary criminal trial" by Langbein? It seems to raise interesting points...
 * I did, but it didn't discuss Garrow himself much. The information I could see (I may not have been paying much attention and missed something, I appreciate). I'm not quite sure where to get Landsman from, but I'll do a search.Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, his "indisputabl[y]...massive impact on the modern, adversarial court system" isn't really explained or described in great detail. But I'll just raise that as a point to discuss.
 * This is the problem; the sources I have all go (essentially) "Garrow was aggressive, as seen in case X when he did....", "Garrow set rules of evidence, as seen in case Y when he said to the jury..." but they don't actually discuss his importance in much detail, except to say that because of his status as a leading practitioner, new pupils followed his lead and it helped bring in an adversarial, evidence-based system. Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My concern is that you've opted to be too cautious with respect to his contribution. I fully understand your caution, and in one way I applaud it. However, the reason why this is a concern for me is that... before yesterday or whenever, I had never heard of Garrow and didn't really have any crystallized understanding that the court system wasn't always "adversarial". Then when I read this, I was quite interested. This is cool stuff, to be frank. But the article left me with a hollow feeling. What... what were the changes, then? I would like to know what the distinguishing features of an adversarial system are, and how Garrow contributed. Now, of course there are two problems. The first is that a full explanation should be in the article on the adversarial system. Fair enough. But at least I could get two or three points, either one paragraph each, or each having two or three sentences in one longish paragraph. That would mean either an additional two or three paragraphs or one longish paragraph in this article. And the second reservation is (as you mentioned) that Garrow's contributions... just weren't closely recorded... because people don't always notice that history is being made. Fair enough again. However, "The origins of adversary criminal trial" by Langbein seemed to take the approach I am hoping for. It did mention at least two characteristics and said "It's not possible to clearly define Garrow's contributions, but...". It even offered a "people don't notice history" hedge. I'm hoping you can take an approach similar to Langbein's. I am making final tests now, but if you can't find the instances I am talking about in Langbein, I will try to find them... &bull; Ling.Nut 04:12, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ahh, I see your point; thank you, by the way, for the emailed sources. I think a way to do it would be to expand on a) what the situation was pre-Garrow, b) what Garrow's attitude was and c) what the situation was post-Garrow; if you've got no problems with that format, I'll spend the next couple of days rejigging it. Ironholds (talk) 04:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Right, added more in; a heartfelt "thanks!" for the additional sources, by the way. Ironholds (talk) 02:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds perfect. I would also suggest adding one sentence that says something roughly like "Although contemporary documents do not establish clearly the degree of Garrow's impact on these trends, many sources suggest that his impact was " followed by a modest example of the the blue-link parade or chorus line that we all know and love. &bull; Ling.Nut 03:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In the lead, or the impact? And if impact, advocacy or evidence? Ironholds (talk) 03:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "irregular relationship" euphemism.... no wait, you're probably referring to "Farrington confided to his diary that [Garrow's] marriage was 'somewhat irregular'" (Hostettler p. 60). I dunno if I would have presented this information in the same manner that you have.
 * Fair enough; suggestions? Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Could we have the monetary sums expressed in modern values as well?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I found a couple cites that suggest that either he coined the phrase "innocent until proved guilty," or at least his was the earliest recorded use of it.
 * Could you link them? Ironholds (talk) 23:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are two: one two. It should be borne in mind, however, that several sources seem to suggest that this is not a completely settled fact. Heck, just Google it. &bull; Ling.Nut 03:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Righto, done that. Ironholds (talk) 12:31, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * &bull; Ling.Nut 12:15, 31 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - The prose is pretty good.  ceran  thor 18:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * He quickly established a reputation as a criminal law barrister, particularly for the defendants, and in February 1793 was made a King's Counsel by HM Government to prosecute treason and felony cases. - I think this would flow better at the end as... cases of treason and felonies ... or at least sound cooler ;)
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I in turn changed that, make sure it didn't change the meaning please.
 * I have to say I prefer my version, rather than "treason and felonies" which is "singular and plural"; a bit awkward. Ironholds (talk) 01:18, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Studying here Garrow "knew the English language well; had a moderate acquaintance with the Latin and, as an accomplishment, added a considerable proficiency in French".[4] - studying there
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment No mention of the libel case of John and Leigh Hunt. In all fairness, it isn't mentioned in the Hunt article, either, and most definitely should be discussed there. But one source I found says that the Hunt case brought Garrow notoriety. &bull; Ling.Nut 04:41, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Added that information which I have; could you provide the notoriety source? The Braby book is short on detail of the case. Ironholds (talk) 12:33, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I will have a read through and see what I can find. If I seem over-critical, rest assured that it's because I hate you. An extremely interesting article. Well researched, seems to cover the ground. Very well written, and the topic is fascinating. J Milburn (talk) 16:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comments from J Milburn
 * "a famine from 1695 to 1699 and a cattle disease the following year" We got articles on either of these?
 * It doesn't look like it, I'm afraid. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Geography, Mathematics" Why are they capitalised?
 * moved down a notch. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "articled" is hardly a common term. Link?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Can we have a caption on the infobox image? How old is he there?
 * Done.
 * "with assaulting John Troughton, putting him in fear of his life, and stealing his hat." Well, that cracked me up.
 * "By 1799, a book recorded that his business at the Court of King's Bench "is exceeded by none but Mr. Erskine's", and that "he has long monopolized the chief business on the home circuit... No man is heard with more attention by the court, no man gains more upon a jury, or better pleases a common auditor".[19]" Could this be rephrased? The tenses are odd, and I'm not even certain what it means.
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "The Briton described" What is The Briton, precisely?
 * A newspaper; no article, unfortunately. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "The Morning Chronicle" Again?
 * Linked. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "the Official Opposition, not HM Government." Who were these people, precisely?
 * Linked. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "which Garrow had long been opposed to" to which Garrow had long been oppose
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "is considered one of his best." By whom, on what grounds? That sort of phrase can't really stand in an FA...
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Thanks to Garrow's political connections, he was made first Solicitor General and then Attorney General for the Prince of Wales in 1806 and 1807; he was recommended by Erskine, who said in a letter to the Prince that "he knows more of the real justice and policy of everything connected with the criminal law than any man I am acquainted with".[27]" Seems a bit shortt to be its own paragraph
 * Expanded somewhat. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "The press had been speculating that Garrow, a Whig, would enter Parliament since 1789" Perhaps "Since 1789, the press had been speculating that Garrow, a Whig, would enter Parliament"
 * Done.Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "however he was first returned in 1805 for Gatton." Sorry, what does this mean?
 * Returned is the technical term for being elected to Parliament. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "impeachment" link?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "He did not enjoy his time in Parliament," What are we basing this on? Letters? Can we have a quote?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Attorney General" Link?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "He eventually resigned as Attorney General and as a Member of Parliament in 1817, when he was appointed one of the Barons of the Exchequer.[34]" Refer to him by name- you just mentioned Garrow
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ""to appoint a gentleman holding a lucrative office at the sole pleasure of the Crown to a high judicial situation, was extremely inconsistent with that independence of the judicial character which it was so important to preserve inviolate"." Is this a quote from Romilly, or a(n) historian?
 * Romilly, directly. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "He regularly amazed both barristers and defendants with his knowledge of the intricacies of crime." Examples? Again, this is a rather unsupported statement.
 * The best I can do is "Braby claims"; no example is given. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "The trust contains his entire estate, with the trustees being Leonard Smith, a merchant, Edward Lowth Badeley of Paper Buildings, Inner Temple and William Nanson Lettsom of Gray's Inn.[42]" Is this meant to be present tense?
 * Hah, woops! Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Lemmings notes Garrow as not only a formidable advocate but "[the] first lawyer to establish a reputation as a defence barrister".[48]" Who? This chap hasn't been mentioned before
 * See the biblio. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "further extended the analysis of Garrow's work with "The Bar and the Old Bailey: 1750-1850", published in 2003." What journal was that published in?
 * It's a book
 * "Garrow's work was cited as recently" cited in court, presumably?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Garrow's work was cited as recently as 1982, when the Supreme Court of Canada quoted a passage from The Trial of William Davidson and Richard Tidd for High Treason, where Garrow instructed the jury as to how to interpret testimony, in Vetrovec v The Queen in 1982, and 2006, when the Irish Court of Criminal Appeal quoted the same work in their review of the 1982 conviction of Brian Meehan for the murder of Veronica Guerin.[50]" Quite a long and confusing sentence.
 * Hopefully I've fixed it. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "It is indisputable that he had" Refer to him by name?
 * Done. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "forced to defend himself." Or herself? Or not?
 * Normally I use the masculine tense, with the convention that unless otherwise mentioned, it refers to both genders. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "He was crucial in insisting on the autonomy of lawyers when inducting evidence, in one case openly arguing with the trial judge to insist that the advocates have independence in submitting it." This is too technical for me, but sounds interesting. Could it be rephrased or include some links?
 * Hmn. I've linked evidence to the appropriate article; I don't really know how to reword it. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "Thomas Hague had suggested" Odd phrase.
 * "has", I think. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Based on the above changes and IRC discussion with Ironholds, I am now willing to support this. J Milburn (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Leaning Support. I dunno how much longer this FAC will run. If it comes to closing time, please color me "Weak Support". I think the "Weak" can be rectified with only a few changes, only two of which I would absolutely require. First, I think a sentence (or at most two, but probably not even that) in the lede that mentions the details of his impact is called for, since these are supporting points of a major thesis of the article. That's the change I require, and really, it shouldn't take more than 5 or at most 10 minutes to make a nice one. Second, please change "irregular relationship" to something like "That one contemporary described as 'irregular'" and cite the quote.. I gave it somewhere above. Another minute or two, tops. Third... I don't absolutely require this, but it would be oh so wonderful.. where is the other landsman article? Please find it if you have time: THE RISE OF THE CONTENTIOUS SPIRIT: ADVERSARY PROCEDURE IN EIGHTEENTH CENTURY ENGLAND. March, 1990 75 Cornell L. Rev. 497 &bull; Ling.Nut 06:10, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Made the first change, I think; I'll try and find the second journal article. Ironholds (talk) 06:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - An interesting article. I must admit it might be recentism, but I do think we could do with another sentence or two on Garrow's Law? It is a novel idea to have a drama based in 18th century court drama and I believe it has been criticised for hitorical inacuracies/dumbing down. I'd also change the sentence about him going into parliament to be '...would enter Parliament as a whig' rather than '...,a whig, would enter Parliament'. It could do with some more pictures of the subject as well. You cannot tell me there are no satirical cartoons of Mr Garrow's work considering the period? I'd also, obviously, prefer the less opaque method of referencing of Name, Title, Publishing Info, Page rather than the simple Name Date format, though I am aware this is more usual in legal history etc. However, these are picky improvement one could make to an already good article. As it stands it is a worthy FAC, though a few niggling improvements could occur. -- Narson ~  Talk  • 15:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Read this article a few days ago, and was impressed then. The improvements definitely suggest this meets the featured article criteria. Peter Symonds ( talk ) 15:17, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support I was the GA reviewer for this article, it was a pleasure to read at that time and clearly met those requirements and i suggested that it could without much difficulty make its way here, with the improvements already made I think its certainly a worthy FA Ajbpearce (talk) 00:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Late to the party, I know, but a few comments. Firstly, when Ironholds asked me if I could suggest a law-related article he could improve, and I suggested Garrow, I never thought how excellent the result would be.  Given Ironhold's skill as a writer, though, I should not have doubted the outcome.  A few quibblettes:
 * In the body of the article, Southouse recommends that Garrow becomes a barrister or solicitor, and then he becomes Crompton' pupil. In the lead, Crompton recommends to his pupil that he becomes a barrister or solicitor.  I assume that the first version is correct, and the lead is slightly tangled?
 * "...many people in Aberdeenshire migrated south. As such, Garrow's father David was born at a farm called Knockside" etc. I'm slightly puzzled by what the "As such" adds here, when David Garrow is still born in Aberdeenshire.
 * In the discussion of his first trial, "and being two of the most prestigious criminal barristers of the day" seems odd - is a word missing?
 * I'm not convinced that Law Officers of the Crown is a good link when mentioning Garrow's appointment as S-G then A-G to the Prince of Wales, since (if I understand things correctly) he wasn't being appointed to a Crown position in the sense of a governmental appointment, but to a private (though prestigious) post in the Prince's affairs. Attorney-General of the Duchy of Cornwall might work, though it isn't great.
 * In the same sentence, is there a better link for "Prince of Wales" than, err, "Prince of Wales", i.e. the individual in question rather than the title?
 * In Political career, "appointed to serve the interests of his patron" - out of interest, who was his patron?
 * Otherwise, a very interesting read, and an article that will surely be even more widely read if and when series 2 of "Garrow's Law" is produced! BencherliteTalk 18:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments, Bencherlite; I've fixed all the points. No need to be self-deprecating; from the list of Cornwall AGs, it appears that was his formal title! Nice catch :). Ironholds (talk) 19:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Image review: after a bit of tidying up, the images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.