Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Willie Mays/archive2

Willie Mays

 * Nominator(s): Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

This article is about Willie Mays, one of the greatest and most famous Major League Baseball players of all time. Last time this was up as a featured article candidate, it was suggested that the prose needed more work. Since then, I have had this article copyedited by the Guild of Copyeditors.

In reviewing this, be sure to see Featured article candidates/Willie Mays/archive1. That review will contain helpful information, as an image and source check were done in the last one. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
 * My comments at the peer review weren't addressed. some sections such as "Most Valuable Player, World Series champion (1954–1957)" and "Move to San Francisco, 1962 pennant race (1958–1962)" are awfully long (and these titles look like they cover two separate topics). Trying to split sections every 3–4 paragraphs is ideal for readability, particularly for readers on mobile devices. Also, "Following the death of Tommy Lasorda on January 7, 2021, Mays became the oldest living Hall of Famer." is unsourced and looks like trivia. "Oldest living Baseball hall of famer" is still in the article and still unsourced. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:55, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
 *  Oppose  1c, 2b based on the points noted above, which have yet to be addressed (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:08, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Changes addressed. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:41, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Accessibility – the infobox image is missing alt text. Heartfox (talk) 05:22, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Added. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:48, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

HF
I will review this nomination, but I have become busier in RL at the moment. Will try to start within the next couple days. Hog Farm Talk 22:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry this took so long, I've been busier than expected.


 * Lead
 * "As of his birthday in 2021, he is the oldest living Baseball Hall of Famer." - unsourced, probably trivial
 * Specify that the Black Barons were in the Negro Leagues
 * Mention in the lead the year he made his MLB debut
 * Indicate the significance of the $100,000+ contract in the lead


 * Early life
 * "Mays did not graduate from Fairfield until 1950, which journalist Allen Barra calls "a minor mystery in Willie's life".[21] He graduated in 1950.[21]" - no need to say that he graduated high school in 1950 in consecutive sentences


 * Playing career
 * "Ten days later, Mays played 33 innings in a doubleheader against the New York Mets" - A few comments here. It actually appears to be 32 innings - the first game was 9, and the second 23 in 23 according to the box scores, for 32 innings instead of 33.  Also, if I read the box scores right, it looks like Cepeda and Jesus Alou played all innings of both games, so unless sources more in-depth than the box scores comment on the significance of this; I'd recommend removing this sentence.
 * "Despite nursing an injured thigh muscle on September 7, Mays reached base in the 11th inning of a game against the Dodgers with two outs, then attempted to score from first base on a Frank Johnson single. On a close play, umpire Tony Venzon initially ruled him out, then changed the call when he saw Roseboro had dropped the ball after Mays collided with him. San Francisco won 3–2." - Not sure in all of Mays's career if this is significant enough to call out in a summary article, although others may disagree with my thinking here
 * I think I included it because Hirsch thought it was notable enough to mention, but I'm okay with either leaving it in or taking it out. Will wait and see if anyone else has thoughts on this. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 01:57, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * "He scheduled his off days that season to avoid facing pitchers like Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver.[177]" - As a baseball fan, I'm aware of why you'd want to avoid facing Gibson and Seaver, but I'd recommend glossing here that these two were some of the best pitchers, as it may not be obvious to someone not familiar with 60s and 70s baseball.

I'm ready for the section about the Mets, but I need to stop here. I'll finish this off very soon. Hog Farm Talk 21:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

"His right thumb would stick out in the air as he waited for pitches, but he wrapped it around the bat as he swung" - Tried this once in high school, didn't get it back around the bat in time on an inside pitch, and squared up the ball with my thumb instead of the bat. After I could finally bend my thumb again after two weeks, I never tried that again
 * Off-topic comment


 * Assessment and legacy
 * "Third in home runs with 660 when he retired, he still ranks sixth as of September 2020" - go ahead and update the as of date (he's still sixth), and update the accessdate for the source, as well.
 * "His 2,062 runs scored rank seventh, and his 1,903 RBI rank 12th.[42] Mays batted .302 in his career and his 3,283 hits are the 12th-most of any player.[42] His 2,992 games played are the ninth-highest total of any major leaguer" - These all need as of dates, in case they change. Pujols or somebody may pass him in some.  Pujols is really close to him in hits, for instance.
 * "and his 1,903 RBI rank 12th." - This needs a footnote. He's 12th per B-Ref, but 11th per MLB, as B-Ref and MLB have different total for Cap Anson, so this needs a note/qualifier

I'm through the cultural effect section, I hope to be able to finish this tomorrow. Hog Farm Talk 03:28, 7 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Categorization
 * Some of the categories don't seem to be mentioned or cited anywhere in the text: Cangrejeros de Santurce (baseball) players, Liga de Béisbol Profesional Roberto Clemente outfielders


 * Infobox
 * Roberto Clemente Award is in the infobox, but I'm not seeing it mentioned or cited in the body (may have missed it)
 * Not seeing where the MLB all-time team in the infobox is mentioned in the body
 * I was having trouble finding articles mentioning it, so I took it out of the infobox as something that, while true, may not be that notable. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:06, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Not seeing where the team Wall of Fame mentioned in the infobox appears in the prose or is cited.

That's it from me, I think. Hog Farm Talk 03:11, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Addressed all changes! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I've read over the two news sections added during this FAC, and think that they are fine and due weight. So supporting on WP:FACR #1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, 1e, 2a, 2b, 2c, and 4''', did not check others. Hog Farm Talk 00:15, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

JJE

Commenting on images:
 * Are we sure that File:Willie Mays and Roy Campanella NYWTS.jpg is PD? The file it's sourced from does not give a direct sourcelink and I wonder about the caveat in the second paragraph of the template.
 * If I'm not mistaken, this is the direct source link: . The caveat concerns "Images by unidentified creators and images from unidentified sources". Here, the Library of Congress identifies this as a "World Telegram & Sun photo by William C. Greene" taken in 1961. According to the LOC page, it is paragraph 3 you should be looking to, not paragraph 2. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:25, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * File:The Catch.png does not seem to significantly improve the understanding of the article topic, and it needs to under WP:NFCC if it has to stay.
 * It should be fine. It's the image itself that's important, moreso than the event. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 22:02, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with here.  While the NFCC criteria are needfully strict, given that this is one of the most iconic photos of all of baseball history, I think its supportable to include it in this article. Hog Farm Talk 22:42, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Sportsfan77777

I don't have time to review the whole article at the moment (maybe later in the year?), but some quick comments:
 * I think the separate All-Star Game section is necessary. The All-Star Game is probably more important to Mays than anyone. Without the separate section (and in particular the quote from Ted Williams), I don't think that is conveyed too well.
 * To a lesser extent, I would also recommend keeping the separate Barnstorming section.
 * I'd have to agree with you, especially after reading the Hirsch and Barra books. Just readded them. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:30, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Leave MVP in the 1954 section header.
 * Fixed. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Some of the paragraphs have good opening sentences that introduces the rest of the paragraph well (e.g. "The Giants won the NL pennant and the 1954 World Series, sweeping the Cleveland Indians in four games."). A few of the other ones do not (e.g. "Mays began the 1954 season on Opening Day with a home run of over 414 feet (126 m) against Carl Erskine." It would be better to start off with saying Mays won the MVP and the Giants won the World Series.)
 * The biggest problem I have with starting the paragraph with Mays won the MVP and the Giants won the World Series is that I'm trying to present events chronologically. The MVP and the World Series did not happen until the end of the year. I fully agree with you that these are the most important things that happened that season, but in a chronological article, I don't think the first sentence needs to introduce the theme of the year. In an article as long as this, writing it that way could make the article too bulky. That said, if you've got suggestions on improving the first sentences of other paragraphs, please let me know about them. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Sort of similar to that issue, the middles of paragraphs don't always have the best transitions from one event to the next. (e.g. "On May 21, Dark named Mays the Giants' captain, making Mays the first African-American captain of an MLB team. "You deserve it," Dark told Mays. "You should have had it long before this."[140] Ten days later, Mays played 33 innings in a doubleheader against the New York Mets." These are unrelated events, but the "ten days later" transition seems like it tries to connect them. Also, I don't think the specific day he was named captain needs to be emphasized, and there are a bunch of other places where I would also suggest to avoid mentioning the specific date in favor of just the month or the part of the season. Also in general, for individual game highlights unrelated to the progression of the season for Mays or his team, it might be better to introduce them with something like "Mays had a notable day [early in the season] where he [played 33 innings in a doubleheader against the New York Mets]" to make it clear it's not really part of the overarching sequence of events for the season(s).)
 * I actually just removed the 33-inning highlight based on another editor's suggestion. I'll be happy to address other instances once you do your more specific review. As to specific dates, I think they should be included when known. It doesn't save significant room by only mentioning the month or part of the season. However, I don't have strong feelings about this, so if other editors think more general dates are better, I'd be fine with changing it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

The last comment is probably the most regular issue in the article, although I don't think it would be so difficult to fix. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 22:01, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Coordinator comment
This has been open for nearly three weeks and shows little sign of obtaining a consensus to promote. Unless this changes over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. For clarity, I would want to see two supports, or reviews well on their way to being addressed, to consider that a consensus had, potentially, begun to form. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:15, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Obviously I can't support or oppose the article, but I have now addressed each review left on this page so far. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * A month in and no supports. I am afraid that this is going to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:22, 25 June 2021 (UTC)