Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Xa Loi Pagoda raids/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:33, 19 December 2009.

Xa Loi Pagoda raids

 * Nominator(s):  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 14:42, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the synchronised attacks by the govt of Ngo Dinh Diem on Buddhist temples across S Vietnam on Aug 21 1963, leaving maybe hundreds dead. As a result of this, the US decided to support a coup against Diem, which came in NOvember.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 14:42, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments One dab link; no dead external links. I fixed the infobox alt to actually show, and proofread other alts. --an odd name (help honey) 21:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Polished off the dab  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket! '') 00:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Support 1a/b/c/d/e, 2c is good. 01:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC) Fifelfoo (talk) 00:19, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixits:
 * "In a country where the Buddhist majority was estimated to comprise between 70 and 90 percent of the population in 1963" which country? RVN?  "Vietnam"?
 * Run on sentence "Many monks from outside Saigon, including prominent Buddhist leaders,…"
 * What's a "group of septet,"? A buddhist term?  Seven people?  But we haven't discussed seven people, we discussed 10.  group of seven generals.  [then introduce the generals]
 * Journalists do not deserve an article, use "as had journalists", you haven't introduced a specific group of journalists acting as a politicised agent, "as the Buddhists had prepared themselves for the attacks, as had the journalists"
 * Awkward, "The vehicles were American models provided as part of the military aid program." try, "The American made trucks had been provided as part of the United States' military aid program for the Diem government."
 * "surrounded Xa Loi from several fronts" fronts are normally multi division military areas.  Try "angles" or "approaches". Approaches is best as its a term from siege warfare, and this is the "breach and storm" phase of a small siege
 * "The journalists were informed as soon" again. No article.  You haven't established "The journalists" as a social agent.  Journalists is the generic.
 * Use strategy instead of paradigm "frequently played them against each other in a divide and conquer paradigm to weaken any chance of a coup attempt."
 * Soldiers from, surely? "The army also contained substantial numbers of the Buddhist majority"
 * Surely this is a red link that we should eventually get around to? "He claimed that the Buddhist Intersect Committee "
 * the Nhus? "hung up banners attacking Diem and Nhus"
 * When was the first drop in public sector morale? Public sector is anachronistic, "civil servant"?  "government employee"  "government officer" in re: "released from jail, resulting in a further drop in public sector morale."
 * A nation can't realise anything, surely US officials, or the US government? "Once the US realized"
 * "they reacted disapprovingly" tense conjuction. The US is not a plural collective unless you mean the people within it comprising it (in the en_GB plural collective form).
 * Fifelfoo (talk) 01:36, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed all of these  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 14:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments – Saw this one lingering for a few days without review and decided to offer a few cleanup suggestions.
 * Remove hyphen from "early-May" in second paragraph of lead?
 * Background: "In a country where the Buddhist majorityt was estimated to comprise between 70 and 90 percent of the population in 1963, President Ngo Dinh Diem's pro-Catholic policies that antagonized many Buddhists." Remove "that".
 * "The application of the law caused indignation among Buddhist on the eve of the most important religious festival of the year". Make Buddhist plural.
 * Another little typo: "government-sposnored".
 * Don't like the multiple Vietcong links in this section. I imagine that's not unknown to too many people.
 * Xa Loi Pagoda: "The attendance had approximately three times higher than that at the previous Sunday's rally." Replace "had" with "was", I believe.
 * Done all those listed above  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 23:36, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * One from the references quickly: Remove all caps from ref 28.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Done all  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 15:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:18, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Question I noticed a mix of British and American English in this article. What version of English do you prefer to use in this article? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed to US for this one  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 15:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Support User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - I know next to nothing about the topic, however, it was in-depth and interesting. I can't comment on 1b or 1c though.  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 00:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 *  Oppose for now . I think this is generally pretty good, and close to meeting the FA criteria, but there are still a few things need fixing first:


 * "... thereby causing the general public and South Vietnam's American allies to blame the army, diminishing their reputations and ability to act as future national leaders." This doesn't quite make sense. The subject of the first part is "army", which is singular, but in the second part we're told about their reputations (plural), and "ability to act as future leaders". I'd guess that the second part is really discussing the generals, and not the army.
 *  Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... and Buddhist monks converged from rural areas." You don't converge from, you converge on.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "The police and army broke up the demonstration by firing guns on and throwing grenades into the gathering ...". This reads rather strangely to me. Does one really fire a gun on someone or something?
 * At, I thihnk  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... Halberstam opined that that ...". Apart from the stuttering, "opined" is a dreadful word that I'd opine ought to be excised from the language.
 * done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Aware that the Americans would not neither oppose a coup nor respond with aid cuts or sanctions ...". Should that be just "neither"?
 * yup. done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "In the afternoon before the raids, trucks filled with soldiers were seen by journalists as they headed past the offices of media outlets ...". This is ambiguous. As written it looks like it was the journalists who were headed past the offices of media outlets.
 * tweaked  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... as Xa Loi's brass gong was clanged to signal the attack." Is "clanged" the correct technical term? Seems a bit slangy to me. The image caption to the right says "rung".
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Nhu's men vandalized the main altar and confiscated the intact charred heart of Thich Quang Duc, which did not burn during his re-cremation." The chronolgy/tense is puzzling me here. Are we saying that the heart hadn't burnt during his re-cremation, or that it didn't burn in a future re-cremation, i.e., one that occurred after the raids?
 *  Twaked. it hadnt burned during the recramate of the funderal  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... some of the Buddhists were able to flee the pagoda with a receptacle containing the remainder of his ashes." Why "remainder"? What happened to the rest of his ashes?
 *  Good point. I meant everything except his heart, but obviously, the heart wasnt ashes.rm remainder  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "One monk was thrown from the balcony down to the courtyard six meters below". Is there only the one balcony? From the picture, it looks like there are several.
 * Cahnged to indef. The books were all definite, but you're right, they seem to have just gone definite without cause  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Later, Thich Quang Do, one of [the] leading arrested monks, who later went on to become one of the leaders of the now-banned Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam, said after being released following the deposal of Diem, when asked why the leaders had not fled to avoid arrest, that 'We had done nothing wrong; therefore we could not flee. If we had, it would have been an admission that we were guilty.. Is this an official attempt on the world's longest sentence record?
 * chopped  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "In Hue, student protestors had turned on an ARVN officer after he fired into their path." I'm not sure what this is saying. Did the firing damage this path that the students were apparently so fond of?
 *  Into where they were, not into a specific paved road  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Two of the detained students were paraded at a press conference in which they forced to falsely admit to being communists ...". Should that be "were forced"? Were they forced during the press conference?
 * tweaked to show they got tortured before teh confession  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "... the diplomatic and press corps assembled at the airport to farewell him". When did "farewell" become a verb? Why did nobody tell me?
 * It seems pretty common parlance, wrong or not, but I changed it to see him off  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "However, General Dinh softened the punishment at the behest of a fellow officer ...". Softened it from what?
 * Tweaked. jail -> house arrest  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 07:05, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

--Malleus Fatuorum 18:03, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support. All of my concerns have been addressed. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:36, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

 Comments  Support I still think a single line needs to be addressed but it is certainly not a concernt that would prevent promotion.

I never knew the whole background of this so thank you and awesome work. A few notes:
 * "In May 1963, a rarely-enforced 1958 law known as Decree Number 10 was invoked" IS there a comma missing (I hate commas so maybe there isn't.
 * No I don't think so  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There could be a comma pair: In May 1963, a rarely-enforced 1958 law, known as Decree Number 10, was invoked. Part of the problem lies in the awkward structure: In May 1963, so and so invoked the rarely enforced 1958 law known as Decree Number 10. OR  Responding to xxx, in May 1963, such and such (authorities) invoked the rarely-enforced 1958 law known as Decree Number 10. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:10, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * tweaked  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 13:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "...with more self-immolations..." Is there an article for this to Wikilink?
 * At the moment there is no page dedicated to the 7-8 self-immolations against Diem in 1963  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "Both sides accused the other of failing to uphold their obligations." Even though it is in the background section, a couple lines of detail would not hurt in my opinion.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "The monks told members of the US press corps in Saigon that they knew the raids were coming." - Is this line needed?
 * Tweaked. Why would it be redundant?  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The reader already knows that the monks knew from the previous line. Why does it matter that the press corp knew? Did this increase coverage? Did they inform them with the intent of increasing coverage? It comes across as an unfinished thought.Cptnono (talk) 22:11, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * tweaked  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 13:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The thumbing of images seems off
 * File:ChuaXaLoi002.jpg should be uprighted
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You might consider removing either Tu Dam or Dieu De
 *  I decided to keep it  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "The meeting was a useful public relations exercise in showing where American government policy stood on the attacks against the Buddhists." "Exercise" isn't needed or should be explained (was it PR emphasizing policy or show?)
 * tweaked  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment
 * Refs missing Maclear and Warner. &bull; Ling.Nut 09:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments. The prose is certainly not perfect, but I'm not opposing. It's good work on the whole. Spot-check: [''Thanks for fixing these. Worthy article.'' Tony   (talk) , 17 December 2009 (UTC))
 * "On the evening of August 18, 10 senior ARVN"—here, MoS suggests "ten" to avoid a clash of numerals.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd normally object to such a density of ref numbers, but heck, some of this could be contentious, and it's great to have the sources pinpointed. I'm glad you're using a number of sources. The narrative is complex and in places intimately detailed. Sometimes it ascribes motives and feelings to people in power. I hope your sources are goooood. For example, "the usually apolitical Saigon public" ... that's a big statement to make, which seems to require great cultural insight to survive the translation into English and anglo cultural eyes. What does "usually apolitical" mean, anyway. When were the unusual instances?
 * All the sources are by award-winning non-fiction writers or professors who wrote iconic books. The book that said "usually apolitical" didn't go into specifics but did say that before 1963 there was basically no demonstrations against the government at all  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * " in order to" ... more than one instance of this.
 * Done with Control F  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Word missing? "that would anger the Vietnamese public and the Americans off his shoulders".
 * Changed punctuation for clarity  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Better ("Nhu's motive was to avoid responsibility for a violent operation that would anger the Vietnamese public and the American leadership."); but it's clunky, and "shift off" isn't nice. Even better might be: "Nhu's motive was to avoid responsibility for a violent operation—which would anger the Vietnamese public and the American leadership." Or "distance himself from". Tony   (talk)  11:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * tweaked  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 13:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "In doing so"—which, angering or getting the Am. off his shoulders? I'm a bit unclear about these few sentences.
 * Ditto  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * opportunity ... opportunity.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Nhu and Johnson: TINY IMAGE and consequently tall caption. It's short vertically, so there's even more reason to boost the (horizonatal) pixel number. I'd try 240 or 250. Nothing else in the vicinity.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You might audit for longish grey paragraphs: there are a few.
 * Dvidied a few  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:56, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The images in the "Raids" section: need to be bigger, IMO.
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


 * "dent the public and American confidence" ... "dent the confidence of the Vietnamese public and the Americans"?
 * Done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 03:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony  (talk)  14:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support &bull; Ling.Nut 12:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Image review ( Temporary Oppose for now Support)
 * File:HenryCabotLodgeJr.jpg, which is from the Congressional Biographical Directory is not necessarily in the public domain
 * Removed.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 13:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * File:Flag of Buddhism.svg needs a better source beyond Image:Flag of Buddhism.png.
 * Added a ref. The website has an editorial staff and is a member of an international vexillogy organisation  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles finally at Featured topic candidates) 13:22, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * NW ( Talk ) 04:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Images should be good now. NW ( Talk ) 20:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.