Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory

Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory
Self Nomination This Canberra suburb article failed to reach consensus last time it was nominated. I believe all of the original objections have been adressed and the article has been noticably improved recently with help from WikiProject Canberra. See the previous nomination. --Martyman- (talk) 10:19, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Minor object. It's very much improved, and is so nearly there. However, I still think it could do with a slight copyedit - most specifically in the history and notable places sections, as well as the education paragraph under "suburb amenities". There's a few capitalisation issues, quite a few sentences that could be worded better, and a few too many sentences that start with "In [year]...". It's certainly not bad, but I like to remember the "brilliant prose" origins of this page. Ambi 10:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the copyedit fixed a lot of the issues; I've gone through it and fixed a few spelling errors and things - though there's still a few punctuation issues, and on a more thorough reading, I've found a few other small problems. Secondly, the chronology in the history section seems to be a bit jerky in the second half; things like the Commonwealth Forestry School section don't seem to fit too well with the rest of the section, and make the section a bit hard to follow. There are also a few cases of odd wording, though (i.e. The other land grant was to William Klensendorlffe. as the opening sentence of a paragraph). Thirdly, some of the paragraphs under "notable places" could do with some tightening up, and the second mention of the Forestry School seems a little repetitive. Fourthly, what does Many are in section 64 Yarralumla mean? Fifthly, I'd like to see Cyberjunkie, Petaholmes or Michaelgabrielsen give the prose a second look over, just to see if there's anything we've both missed. Ambi 13:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC) Support. There's a few lingering prose issues, but not substantial enough to continue to object to this great article being featured. Ambi 04:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * How long do articles stay up on FAC? I'll try to read through it properly and see if I can make any suggestions sometime this week, but I'm extremely busy and can't promise I'll get around to it. From a brief glance, the content looks great but there are a few formatting issues: notable places, for one, looks a bit messy. Also, (and this is ridiculously minor) is there any particular reason why the US, UK and China are mentioned in the lead as having missions in Yarralumla over other countries? Good luck with it, --Cyberjunkie | Talk 13:45, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Normally at least five days, can be a lot longer if there's some debate going on and the article's getting edited in response to people's objections. [[Image:Yemen flag large.png|24px]] CTOAGN (talk) 21:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. The best suburb article I've seen so far! Cheers, - >>michaelg | talk 02:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support, but I still have some concerns. As Ambi has mentioned, there are a few prose issues that should be taken care of. It would be good to have another person go over the article - I'm hoping Nichalp might spot this. The main problem with the writing in some places is short sentences that interupt the flow. I think this is particularly so in the History section. The History section itself could do with a reworking. The first half reads like real estate history, detailing owner after owner without much context. That's a problem with the entire section in fact - a lot is said, but context is lacking: why is what being said important? how is it relevant? Elaborating would help, but that would probably require more research. There also seems to be some chronological inconsistencies. Aside from the History section, there appears to be an overlap between the Amenities and Notable places sections. IIRC, a playground is mentioned in Notable places instead of amenities. Other than that, great work!--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Object – I echo what Cyberjunkie has to say. The text does need a copyedit and short paragraphs merged. There are a lot of odd sentences, and poetic phrases such as "This stigma began to fade.." coupled with one or two typos. The table on the embassies is not needed, it should be moved a a new page and linked from this page. I feel that $ in the infobox should be conveted to AU$. Those bus route timings and all are not needed. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  15:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * This stigma began to fade, was one of mine :P. I didn't know how else to put what was trying to be said: that the suburb got snazzy and people liked it all of a sudden, instead of deriding it as "working class".--Cyberjunkie | Talk 22:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The table of embassies emphasises the most notable thing about the suburb to foreign readers. I have moved the table to the bottom of the section to stop it interupting the flow of the text. I have changed the currency symbol. I don't see why mentioning the suburbs only public trasnport in detail should be objectionable. How does it detract from the article? --Martyman- (talk) 23:25, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I second Martyman's objection to the objection. Just as we would mention what railway line it was on if there were one, we should mention buses - it's of interest to many. While I disagreed with the table at first, there has been some good points made, and basically everyone in the Canberra WikiProject agrees that it's useful - particularly in showing notability to international readers. Ambi 23:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The table looks much better at the bottom.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 23:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * For the record, Petaholmes just fixed Nichalp's grammar and prose objection, and the others are all quite strongly disputed by the rest of the Canberra editors. Ambi 07:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to the bus timings. That reads like a tourist guide. Secondly, that table is not primary matter. Its more of a ancilliary list and I strongly feel it should be in a separate article. Just like can't have a list of UN missions in NYC on the New York page. Also, there's no category to the page. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  19:00, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So you are objecting to one sentence on bus timings and a table which everyone else thinks should stay in the article? We already have a Diplomatic missions in Canberra page, if there where pages created for individual suburbs, I would vote to delete them. This is not New York, this is a suburb of 3000 people with around 20% of its area dedicated to embassies. If 20% of New York was embassies I would expect them to be covered in great detail. The embassies located in the suburb should definately be listed, and doing so in prose would not work. I think the table is the neaatest way to do this. I have re-added the category, which got lost during recent edits.--Martyman- (talk) 21:32, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd have to say that as the transport problems arose with waterfall gully, im in favour of the bus times staying. It doesn't make it touristy, it simply makes the article more relevant to the actual suburb (which it is, a suburb - and offers suburb-relevant transport information). In regards to the diplomatic missions, that's a very important part of the suburb and definetely worth noting. Cheers, - [[Image:Flag of Australia.svg|24px]] >>michaelg | talk 11:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1. ...offers suburb-relevant transport information..., that's the function of a tourist guide, not an encyclopedia. 2. =Notable places= should mention the notable places, not a list of all embassies in the area. I still strongly recommend that the table be moved to a separate article. The topic is on the suburb, and the list is secondary information. I've opposed all such lists in the past, be it schools, colleges etc. I'm sorry, but I cannot support this unless both are removed. (If you do remove it, please let me know so that I can change my vote.) Regards,  =Nichalp   «Talk»=  14:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Lots of things in this encylopedia could be considered 'touristy' but simply listing the accurate transport information for a suburb is not. In a city article, public transport, roads, etc are all detailed. In the context of an individual suburb, the information must also be relevant. Leaving out relevant information that could otherwise give the reader more knowledge does not make sense. This goes for the embassies objection aswell. I don't live in Yarralumla, but I've been there and the embassies are well worth mentioning. Cheers, - [[Image:Flag of Australia.svg|24px]] >>michaelg | talk 15:02, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is worth worrying about any longer; FAC does not give users a veto over article content, and every single other user who has commented on this topic, both here and elsewhere, has supported the inclusion of this content. It is thus unactionable; to remove it would be to go against the consensus of everyone else. Ambi 00:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That's incorrect. My objection is certainly very actionable. I'm not sure why you assume that everyone has given their explicit support for the inclusion of the table. Its possible that may not have an opinion on it. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  13:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the fact that there is only the real options of support and object mean that a support is a 100% while an object is nothing? I don't mean to be rude at all, much less discount your opinion, but I fail to see how the inclusion of a table (which has relative and informative content) distracts from the overall quality of the article. As you have said yourself, your objection is actionable. Wouldn't the action to be whether community consenus is for or against the table? Would any other wikipedians please voice their opinion on it? Cheers, - [[Image:Flag of Australia.svg|24px]] >>michaelg | talk 14:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to keep the table. [[Image:Yemen flag large.png|24px]] CTOAGN (talk) 17:17, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. But what does "gazetted" mean in the lead?  PedanticallySpeaking 17:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Created as an an official suburb. Ambi 23:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I have wikilinked to term now to avoid confusion. --Martyman- (talk) 00:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 *  Conditional support. I can see why the table of embassies is where it is, but it breaks up the section by being there.  If you move it to the bottom of the section or convince me that it needs to be where it is I'll support the nomination.  Other really minor points that I won't object over:
 * The history section could do with a couple of subheadings as it's quite long.
 * It'd look better on some people's displays if the images just used the 'thumb' settings instead of having pixel sizes set. I use a laptop cranked up to its highest resolution, so images always look a little too small on my system when the image width is specified.  People on low-res displays with largish screens are probably having the opposite problem.  Just using the 'thumb' tag sets the image width to whatever the user has specified in their preferences, so it's more likely to suit everyone.
 * I think the References section should be renamed Notes and references in line with WP:CITE, unless some of the texts in Further reading were used to create the article, in which case they need to be in the references section. [[Image:Yemen flag large.png|24px]] CTOAGN (talk) 20:02, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I have re-ordered the notable places section to stop the embassies table breaking the flow of the text. I am intending to try breaking up the history section with sub-headings some time today. I hate the default size of thumbnails they are way too small for any reasonable screen resolution. This means only poeple who have taken the time to register would see proper sized images. I have tried to pick sizes that will not cause formatting problems at any resolution and will look acceptable accross a wide range. I have renamed the references section, the further reading is just suggested books, not actually used in the writing of the article. --Martyman- (talk) 00:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Hadn't thought about the default resolution - good point. I've noticed one other thing - the map at the top would be more helpful if it had a scale on it.  I'll support the article either way though - it's great.  [[Image:Yemen flag large.png|24px]] CTOAGN (talk) 21:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I have added a scale to the infobox map. --Martyman- (talk) 09:43, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to be difficult, but I'm not sure that some of the edits during this FAC have helped this article. I don't think the trimming of the notable places section was necessary, and it removed some interesting content, as well as forcing the piling up of images in big blocks (which looks fairly ugly). Ambi 02:30, 9 November 2005 (UTC) With Petaholmes latest copyedits and some of the changes made this afternoon, this has become very fine article of the standard of Waterfall Gully, and I can no longer fault it one bit. Ambi 07:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support (with the disclaimer that I have helped with the format of the article), revisions to the structure of the article- which seemed to be the most common objection (section x overlaps with section y) have been the only significant change during this FAC - no content has been lost, just moved. I think Martyman has done a great job making this article comprehensive and interesting.--nixie 02:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. I too disclose that I have made a few very recent copyedits (mainly sp., punc., and minor style changes) to this article, but have not otherwise been involved in bringing it up to its current level. There is some repetition of information, and other minutae which could readily be omitted without harming it (eg the composition of the local shops, bus timings); but I don't think that these are sufficient to detract from what is a comprehensive, well-researched and referenced treatment.--cjllw | TALK  06:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Appears comprehenisive in terms of European settlement, has good photos, charts, and maps and is referenced. I wouldn't know, but was there no indigenous settlement in the vicinity of what is now Yarralumla? If there was, could that be given slight mention in the lead and elsewhere (other than the name's origin)? Otherwise, great article. Saravask 02:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know there is no Indigenous Australian information specific to Yarralumla. It is a rather small area after all. If anyone comes across any they are welcome to add it to the article. --Martyman- (talk) 04:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)