Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/York Park/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009.

York Park

 * Nominator(s):  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Launceston, Tasmania's main sporting stadium. Hosts regular Australian Football League matches.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments: Does anyone fell it necessary that the history is the first section?  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Reply: The history section should come before the events section. Lines were drawn on paper and foundation was laid before anyone walked on to the pitch nd touched a ball. It makes more sense chronologically to express that in the flow of the article. From a structural (both the actual facility and article layout) stand point, the history of the physical building should take precedence over the events hosted there. I am a huge fan of milestones being represented through the different events but they are in addition to the history. Also, the WikiProject Event Venues/Sports task force is a decent outline. I believe the task force is dead but it is still a good resource. Most GA and FA pages I have come across have events after or intertwined with the section discussing the construction.Cptnono (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Moved.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 10:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment "Throughout its history, York Park has hosted major pop concerts and other entertainments" - but almost all the examples in York Park are from the last decade. I appreciate you have the Ike and Tina Turner show and the Billy Graham revival listed from earlier times, but were there any other major cricket or rugby matches, concerts etc from pre-redevelopment? If it only started to be used for other sports etc after the redevelopment, that probably warrants mentioning in itself. Also, is "the North Launceston" correct as a name? (It may well be correct - I know nothing about Tasmanian football - it just looks like there's a "club" or "team" missing.) – iride  scent  17:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, nothing is provided in sources. I think some soccer was played but nothing else with sources can be added. Linked North Launceston Football Club.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text is done; thanks. Alt text is present and is mostly good (thanks), but there are two problems. First, File:Hawthorn v Western Bulldogs - 31st May 2008 181.jpg lacks alt text. Second, the alt text for File:Aurora Stadium map.png is merely "A map of a stadium", which (a) duplicates the caption, a bad thing (see WP:ALT), and, more importantly (b) doesn't help the visually impaired reader understand the info the map is conveying. Please see WP:ALT and WP:ALT for advice here. Eubulides (talk) 20:47, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 10:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that; it looks good. Eubulides (talk) 14:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There is an inconsistency in the bolding etc of "The Examiner" and in some places where things link ABC are itaclised and/or linked.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 05:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Was meant to clean up before.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks sir.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using cite news, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper. (note that I pointed this out in the last FAC in Feb).
 * And in the PR I think. Sure I changed it... but obviously not.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * YM fixed.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.ozfootball.net/ark/NSL/20012002/Round20.html
 * Has to go.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did this as well.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 12:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/vn_york_park.html
 * I remember we previously came to the conclusion at previous that it was.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Can't seem to find it anywhere. Well it possibly isn't the most reliable source according to some editors but sometimes we just need to use common sense. I'm sure a website that has stats on cricket/afl/rugby should be confided more reliable than say a newspaper article. The AFL section has stats on the Brownlow Medal, player stats and also all crowds for matches since 1921. The only place on the net that has this kind of info. Maybe soccer articles have so called "reliable" sources on their website. If this info was to be removed a large chunk of crowd figure would to.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 01:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Will leave this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:05, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * http://sportsaustralia.com/
 * What ref is that? Don't know anything about this, unless a page has been redirected.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:07, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * here it is. Well I'm not sure.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Swapped anyhow.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 00:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyedited one of the acres should be converted into metric  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 03:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What template should I use? Can't find one.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 12:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * done  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 03:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Have people made comments about how the nature of the ground affects the play? eg, wide ground promoting flank attacks, windy conditions therefore encouraging handballing instead of long kicks and all that type of thing.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 02:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They have, but there's nothing I can find that has been sourced. It's also the biggest ground in the AFL (larger than the Melbourne Cricket Ground, but I can't find anything... I had a book from about eight years ago that had something but dunno where it is.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Pity  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 00:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment – Haven't read this in-depth yet, but I did notice that a couple of problems mentioned in the first FAC have not been addressed: the use of Google Maps to cite the first sentence of Transport and the use of Wotif.com, which was questioned by Karanacs.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 22:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC) Parkin discusses the geometry and how it affects tactics and style  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 06:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Wipe it then?  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 04:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry it took so long for me to come back, but if you can't find alternate sources, I would recommend doing so.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 01:07, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Gone. Moved the bit about parking to structures and facilities.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 01:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Found something  YellowMonkey   ( bananabucket ) 01:00, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dont News.com archive all their articles? Then you can't access them?  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 04:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Anyway, does this deserve a mention in facilities?  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 04:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Windy Blog, but from a staff of a broadcaster. Says that windy isn't good for tall forwards. Maybe a textbook soemwhere says that. Source saying that the ground is windy . Then it shouldn't be hard to find a coaching textbook telling people that long kicks aren't a good idea when it's windy. As long as we don't then conclude "Therefore, handballing teams should do better at YP" there is no OR problem  YellowMonkey   ( bananabucket ) 06:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links, interestingly reducing the ground size didn't work. I was going to add this months ago but wasn't sure if it was notable enough.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * all you have to say is that up until 2009, it has such ans such a reputation. And then if nobody has said anything since the change, just write down teh scoring stats  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 06:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the change was only for the 2009 NAB Cup match, which isn't really notable. The boundary line has been moved back again.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, well in that case, the perception that the geometry promotes turgid play is still relevant  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 06:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Did a bit.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 13:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Image review - All good. NW ( Talk ) 17:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Support  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket! ) 06:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 06:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

''' This needs an independent copy-edit and MoS check. '''
 * "Sports ground" linked? That link-target says "A playing field is a field used for playing sports or games." Do you think it's useful?
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Try to pick up close repetitions like a radar beam: "Beforehand, only North Launceston and state football games were played. The area was originally swampland before becoming ...". -> "Until then, only ...". (which is more appropriate than the vivid "beforehand", anyway). Consider removing "originally".
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Within two years" ... might be just "in two years"; preferable unless misleading.
 * Infobox: "Architect: Various". This is where infoboxes need to be either dumped or tweaked. That wastes the reader's time and enlarges the size of the box, and probably irritates readers. There's "m" for million, and "m" for metres. I think the MoS wants "M" for million, unspaced as you have it.
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923, with other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing also staged." The "with" is a trigger for examining whether two sentences would be better, or even a semicolon. Do we "stage" sports? Hope not!
 * What do you suggest we change to? "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923; other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing have been held." "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923; other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing have [also?] been held at the ground/venue." Or a sentence completely different?  Aaroncrick   ( talk ) 07:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Australian rules football and other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing have been played at York Park since 1923." Avoids repetition?  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Another issue concerning the linking of ideas in a sentence: "The Tasmanian Government has a AU$16.4 million, five-year sponsorship deal with Hawthorn, meaning that four home and away season games and one National Australia Bank Cup pre-season match will be ...". "Meaning that" is a little awkward; try "under which", which draws a more precise relationship between the ideas, yes? Another niggle: see "Precise language" at the concise MoS. Was this deal struck ... in 2007, or when?
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:19, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You can drop the [,...] (and remove the halting comma) when a quote winds nicely into the grammar of WP's sentence: although Alderman Salder noted that, " [...] Launceston was well known
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

That's just at the top. Tony  (talk)  05:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for your comments.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 Oppose  – 1a. I finally got a chance to give the article a through reading, only to find numerous prose problems and other issues. I must echo Tony is asking for you to do more than just fix these issues; the entire page should be given a third-party copy-edit. Nominators can easily become too close to the text to spot flaws, and a single reviewer can't spot everything.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 21:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "Australian rules football and other sports such as:". Remove colon?
 * Why is there a need for two AFL links in the lead? Anyone interested will have clicked on the one in the first paragraph. I'd suggest de-linking the second.
 * History: "Despite cricketers being in 'full [...] praise' of the ground". This is an awkward structure, and would be better presented as "Even though cricketers were in 'full [...] praise' of the ground".
 * "with the winner receiving $20." This is similar to the structure above, and should be searched for throughout.
 * World War II seems like a very common subject and might not need a link. Most readers will know what that is by now.
 * "not to resume until the 1945 season. The 1945 season...". Very close repetition here. Try to recast the second sentence to avoid the redundant use of "the 1945 season".
 * In this same sentence, NTFA really doesn't need a second link in one section, and it would be good to see the initials in parentheses after first use, to prevent any confusion readers may have.
 * "Three years later, twelve Ornamental tree were planted in their memory." Should it be "ornamental trees"?
 * "The $6.4 million re-development completed in 2000, was the first major phase of developing...". Just having one comma here causes to flow of this sentence to be sub-optimal. I recommend adding another after "re-development". I won't pick out every punctuation use I disagree with, but this is another area that should be inspected throughout, since it is crucial for professional writing.
 * "this meant that almost the entire seating area was protected from the weather." For a better read, consider "this meant that almost all of the seating area was protected from the weather."
 * "The insurance payout from the fire will determine whether the venue is expanded." I assume this hasn't been resolved yet? Both of the sources are from March 2008, so I thought that was worth asking about.
 * On a quick scan of Other uses: Who are the Socceroos? This should be explained for those unfamiliar with the Australian soccer team.
 * Formatting note: References from printed publications (like ref 20) should have the publisher in italics.
 * Reference 48 (update: now 50) has no given publisher (Sporting Pulse).
 * Did a second round of copyedit. My copyedits of others' articels always seem to not work :(  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 06:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Issues you've noted are all fixed I think.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 07:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Spot-check towards the end:
 * "York Park is an oval-shaped grassed arena surrounded by several different stands"—You could remove "different", unless there's some point in highlighting the difference between the stands (it's not obvious).
 * A featured article mentions this. There's 4-5 completely different looking stands.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Free ad for Gunns, mentioned four times in three sentences; is that everyone's favourite "f... the environment paper mill" Gunns? Forget I said that. "17.15 (117)"—Perhaps I should read more closely to work out what is being converted to what.
 * "once they [a team] chipped wide out there"—this is a quote; even if it comes directly from a printed secondary source (it's just a ref number, not an explicit "as reported by the blah newspaper"), I'd make it "once [a team] chipped wide out there". That's what square brackets are for.
 * "the highest crowd since the fire"—so they sat on the top seats only? Perhaps "the largest crowd" (you were thinking "highest level of attendance").
 * Done.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:30, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * "The stadium's lowest AFL attendance is 12,465, recorded in a match between St Kilda and Fremantle on 3 April 2005." I think "was 12,465, for a match ...".
 * Another bit has "is". "The highest recorded attendance for a soccer match is 8,061." Do you want me to change this? Doesn't sound right though.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've reluctantly struck my Oppose. Is Giant satisfied with the recent work? Tony   (talk)  06:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure, I'll have to ask.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * PS A small point: the panoramic pic (really good one) at the bottom leaks over half the table to its right unless I widen my window significantly. Any way this could be a "center" image? Possibly first in the section, with the text wrapped against the table? Tony   (talk)  07:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's fine on mine. But you do what you want, as I think you would know what you're doing .. Unlike me.  Aaroncrick  ( talk ) 08:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.