Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yugoslav gunboat Beli Orao/archive1

Yugoslav gunboat Beli Orao

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

This article is about a Yugoslav ship that was built just before WWII as a royal yacht, and intended to be used as a patrol boat, escort or guard ship in wartime. She was captured by the Italians during the April 1941 Axis invasion, and served in various roles under their flag until 1943, including for training anti-submarine warfare crew. Returned to the Royal Yugoslav Navy-in-exile, she was refitted and used as a tender for a flotilla of motor gunboats in the Tyrrhenian and Adriatic Seas. Taken over by the Partisans, she continued to serve in the Yugoslav Navy until the late 1970s. The article recently passed Milhist ACR after I secured copies of two new books on the Royal Yugoslav Navy and naval actions in the Adriatic in WWII which allowed me to expand the article to the point that I now think it is comprehensive enough to meet the FA criteria. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Image review pass per ACR (t &#183; c)  buidhe  15:08, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks buidhe! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:25, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Source review
Spotchecks not done. Version reviewed.
 * Could the namesake information in the infobox be elaborated to reflect what's in the text?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Any idea why the measurements vary between sources?
 * No, it happens though. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Be consistent in if and how publication location is presented
 * Not sure what you mean here. Do you mean dropping England from London, or what? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You've got locations for all sources but Niehorster; some locations include city and some are at the country level; some locations include country while others include a subnational entity. I'm looking for a consistent rule for whether locations are included (eg if you're not including it for Niehorster because it's a web source, it shouldn't be there for Miramar either), and then a consistent rule on what level and type of location detail is included. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, gotcha. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Don't duplicate between publisher and author fields
 * Dropped. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * What makes Leo Niehorster a high-quality reliable source? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Niehorster has a PhD and is a published author (with The Military Press, a reliable military book publisher in the UK) on orders of battle. I've used him in a couple of dozen FAs/FLs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

One query,. Thanks for taking a look, as always. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:30, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
I could find remarkably little to pick at when I reviewed this for ACR, now it is at FAC I shall recuse and try harder.


 * "post-World War II". All entries in the infobox should commence with an upper case letter.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "she was pressed into service as the Admiralty yacht". Perhaps you could tell readers, or at least me, what the function of the Admiralty yacht. (And the upper case A with the lower case y seems to beg a couple of questions.)
 * dropped the A (as it can cause confusion because the Admiralty is usually associated with the British Royal Navy), and added a short explanation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Re-armed" implies that at some point she had been disarmed? If so, should it not be mentioned?
 * reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "a flotilla of motor gunboats that had been loaned to the Yugoslav Royal Navy-in-exile." By?
 * Complicated, they were US-built ones leased by the Brits then loaned to the Yugoslavs. Not sure that is needed, so just went with the Royal Navy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "as a naval yacht". Without even a link to help us out, what the devil is a naval yacht?
 * similar to an admiralty yacht, but for wider use, but Armed yacht is close, so linked that and tweaked the wording. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Anchored off Krtole within the bay, the commander-in-chief of the fleet, Rear Admiral Emil Domainko, was summoned to meet with the Italian general whose troops had captured Kotor." The chronological flow would be improved if we were told about the Italian capture of Kotor before Domainko's movements.
 * Sure, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "She was put into service with the Regia Marina ..." Possibly start a new paragraph here?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Zagabria was then attached to the anti-submarine warfare (ASW) school". Any idea when? Even very roughly.
 * Great question, sadly the source is quite vague on this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

And that trivia is all I can find. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look, ! See what you think of my responses. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:07, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Comments Support by Pendright
A few nitpickers for you! Pendright (talk) 00:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Lead:
 * She was then used to train anti-submarine warfare specialists out of the naval base at La Spezia
 * out of -> "from" might be more conventional
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Background:
 * Beli Orao was ordered from Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico (CRDA) at Trieste in Italy in 1938, originally as a guard ship for the Yugoslav Financial Guard. During her construction, the
 * Might drop the first in and give Trieste, Italy, its normal punctuation
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Could add "built" after originally
 * Went with something else, but thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The final design gave her the appearance of a motor yacht or fast passenger ship.[3]
 * When one compares Beli Orao with the passenger ship linked, the word "appearance" seems a stretch
 * changed to Motor ship, but there isn't a perfect link for this AFAIK. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The size of her crew is unknown.[1]
 * Might this be good info for the Infobox?
 * Sure. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Service:
 * After the Italians captured Kotor, the commander-in-chief of the fleet, Rear Admiral Emil Domainko, who was aboard Beli Orao anchored off Krtole within the bay, was summoned to meet with the Italian general at Kotor.[7
 * the Italian general -> Wouldn't it be "an" Italian general, since no specific general has been named?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * During her service with the Italians her two 40 mm guns were replaced by two Oerlikon 20 mm (0.79 in) L/70 guns.
 * consider repllacing one "her"
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * "by" two or "with" two?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Until the Italian armistice with the Allies in September 1943, she was used to train ASW specialist crew for corvettes, destroyers and torpedo boats.
 * Is it "a" specialist crew, or specilist crews?
 * Just cut it down to ASW specialists. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * In 1944 and 1945, she was stationed at Malta,[3] where the British Royal Navy purged the remaining "royalists" from the flotilla, replacing those personnel with politically reliable crew loyal to the Yugoslav Communist Party-led Yugoslav Partisans.
 * The comma after Malta does not fit well with the flow or meaning of the sentence, as I read it
 * Deleted.

Finished - Pendright (talk) 00:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks as always, ! See what you think of my changes. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:22, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Suporting - Regards
 * Pendright (talk) 17:30, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Comments Support by Z1720
Non-expert prose review.


 * "Her guns were replaced" Guns were replaced with what? Was this an upgrade to make her a more powerful ship?
 * Actually less powerful, the 40 mm guns were replaced with 20 mm. The latter were the Italians preferred anti-aircraft guns for which they had plentiful ammunition. Ammunition for the original ones was limited to what had been captured during the invasion, as they weren't made by the Italians. Have tweaked the wording, see what you think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * "In 1978, she was still in service as a yacht, but was scrapped soon after." -> Feels a little awkward. Was she scrapped in 1978? If so, maybe "She remained in service as a yacht until 1978, when she was scrapped."
 * Unfortunately it isn't completely clear that she was scrapped in 1978, it might have been a year or two later. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Do the sources say that it is unclear when she was scrapped? Perhaps this should be included in the article. If this is OR because the sources don't really say anything about it, then leave as-is. Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * It would be OR. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * "Orao's length overall, both 60.45 metres" put "and both 60.45 metres"?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * "She had a standard displacement of 567 tonnes (558 long tons),[1][2] and displaced around 660 t (650 long tons) at full load.[1][2]" If you are citing the same sources, I don't think the references after the comma are necessary.
 * Well spotted, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * "was laid down on 23 December 1938," laid down is a technical term and should be wikilinked, perhaps to keel laying?
 * Not sure how I missed that, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I have missed far worse things in articles I have written. Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * "When the fleet flagship, the obsolete light cruiser Dalmacija, was tasked to participate in an attack against the Italian enclave of Zara, the fleet staff transferred to Beli Orao." The comma are creating a choppy prose. Maybe, "The fleet staff of the obsolete light cruiser Dalmacija transferred to Beli Orao when the former was tasked to participate in an attack against the Italian enclave of Zara."
 * Reduced commas by restructuring the sentence, see what you think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Triste is listed as a builder in the infobox. Originally I thought this was a company, but its actually the name of an Italian city. Did the city help fund/build this ship? If so, their contribution should be mentioned in the body and if not, it should probably be removed from this section.
 * It is differentiating it from the CDRA shipyards in other ports, ie it was built in the one at Trieste. I have done this with shipbuilders with multiple yards in previous FAs, but if you insist, I could remove it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe reword to: Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico in Trieste? Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Of course, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

That's all from me. Please ping when the above are responded to. Z1720 (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * All addressed, . Thanks very much for taking a look. Let me know what you think of my responses? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 21:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Have addressed your tweaks. Thanks again, ! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
 * My concerns have been addressed, so I can now support. Z1720 (talk) 01:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

G'day this one has three supports (one non-Milhist) and image and source reviews. Can I have a dispensation for a fresh nom please? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure PM, go ahead. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:35, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Minor comments from Chidgk1
"Her guns were replaced and she saw service as a gunboat in the Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy), briefly as Alba then Zagabria, undertaking harbour protection and coastal escort duties."

could be tightened to something like

The Italian Navy (had her guns replaced)/(replaced her guns) and used her as a gunboat for harbour protection and coastal escort, briefly as Alba then Zagabria.

or

The Italian Navy rearmed her as a gunboat for harbour protection and coastal escort, briefly as Alba then Zagabria.


 * Thanks, went for something like that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

If we know why the guns were replaced it could be mentioned in the body of the article.
 * Yes, unclear in sources, but probably because of lack of ammunition for the existing guns and greater familiarity of her Italian crew with the 20 mm ones, which were the standard light anti-aircraft guns used by the Italians. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, if you liked this comment, or are looking for an article to review I have one at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates#Greenhouse_gas_emissions_by_Turkey Chidgk1 (talk) 17:39, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * (Additional comment)
 * Thanks for taking a look! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 20:51, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:05, 29 August 2021 (UTC)