Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Yugoslav torpedo boat T4/archive1

Yugoslav torpedo boat T4

 * Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

This is about another of the dinky little steam torpedo boats that ended up with the Yugoslavs after seeing extensive service with the Austro-Hungarians in WWI. The Yugoslavs got eight of these, and so far five are featured, and I'm working on the other three. This one didn't make it to WWII, as she ran aground in 1932 and broke in half. The stern was towed to a major naval base 240 kms south, resulting in a standing joke among Yugoslav sailors that she was the "world's longest torpedo boat". This one passed Milhist ACR back in 2020, but has been substantially expanded in the last few months thanks to newly published sources. Have at it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Hog Farm
I'll review this - please ping me if I haven't gotten to this by Thursday. Hog Farm Talk 00:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Is there a possible link for ventilation cowl? This isn't the most familiar term
 * No it isn't well known. I forgot to remove this, as I think it is detail that better belongs in the class article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "Until October 1915, the boat was painted black, but from that point it was painted a light blue-grey." - do we know if this was for camoflague purposes?
 * Yes, they thought black was effective at night, but discovered it made the ships stand out more. I'll find a source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I can't find one specifically for Austro-Hungarian torpedo boats (my recollection that it also applied to destroyers). Pinging, might you have or know of a source for this? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I had a look through what I have and couldn't find anything relevant - but I know has some other stuff on Austro-Hungarian destroyers and torpedo craft that I don't, so he might be able to help. Parsecboy (talk) 12:59, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just repinging in case he has a source for this, otherwise I think it'll just have to go as is. Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 06:51, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "Her captain realised the situation and instead he moored in the Castelnuovo anchorage and put his crew ashore" - is this an indication that he was doing this for fear that the mutiny would spread to his vessel, or that he did not want his ship to serve a function similar to those of the loyal ships from Bocche which later arrived?
 * The source isn't specific, but I imagine he thought that returning to the Bocche would just add fuel to the fire. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * "In May and June 1929, six of the eight 250t-class torpedo boats accompanied the light cruiser Dalmacija, the submarine tender Hvar and the submarines Hrabri and Nebojša, on a cruise to Malta" - do we know if this ship was one of them?
 * Well, we didn't, but I found the account of the cruise published by the Adriatic Guard (the Yugoslav naval association) and it says T3-T8. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I think a brief gloss of the nature of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs was is needed. My assumption is that this is some sort of short-lived rump state to the old empire, but this could perhaps be made clearer.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

No major concerns here; excellent work as always. Hog Farm Talk 03:34, 29 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hey Hog Farm, is your statement above intended to be a support? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 21:27, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am supporting this article's candidacy. Hog Farm Talk 21:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Harrias

 * Per Naming conventions (ships), why is the article at Yugoslav torpedo boat T4; it seems that only just over one paragraph of the entire article deals with the ship's time as T4, whereas most of the article relates to her Austro-Hungarian service.
 * Essentially there are two issues here, what the "best known name" is, per Naming conventions (ships), and the low value in splitting it. Yes, it was busy in Austro-Hungarian service in WWI, of course, which is why it has so much on that period and a lot less on its Yugoslav service which was in peacetime. However, it spent only one quarter of its service life in Austro-Hungarian service and was lost in Yugoslav hands. The significant coverage in reliable sources (which reflects which the "best known name" is), is in my experience split roughly equally between its Austro-Hungarian service and its Yugoslav service. Add to that fact that it was lost in Yugoslav service and therefore the Yugoslav flag was its final flag, and I think the Yugoslav just outweighs the Austro-Hungarian. It is also relevant that at all of the Yugoslav boats of this class are at the Yugoslav name, and six of them had wartime service with the Yugoslav names (under the Yugoslavs, Italians and one with the Germans), so some element of consistency is also important I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "79 T and the rest of the 250t class.." – The MOS asks us to avoid starting a sentence with a number as a figure; can this be rephrased? (And again later with "79 T laid mines off the town..")
 * Good point, reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "Four mounting points were installed so that the machine gun could be mounted in the most effective position.." – To avoid repetition, could "be mounted in" be changed to "be fitted in"?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "As the 250t-class boats came into service, they joined the 1st Torpedo Flotilla, was initially led by.." – It feels like this is missing the word "which" before "was" (or maybe remove "was")?
 * Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Link "interdict" to Interdiction on first use.
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "..hitting Novara and damaging 80 T and wounding three of her crew." – I think the second "and" would be better replaced with a comma?
 * Better, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * "..two Italian MAS boats.." – Can you link MAS boats to MAS (motorboat)?
 * Done, not sure how I missed that... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * It looks like you've got the wrong ISBN for Freivogel 2022, I think it should be 978-953-366-063-9.
 * Well spotted, typo. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Overall, a really nice article, with just some minor fixes to be done. Harrias (he/him) • talk 10:19, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi PM, do you think you can address these soon? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * All done thanks . Happy New Year! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:23, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Support this looks good to me – the naming issue isn't relevant to the FA anyway, but I'm content that the ambiguity means that at the very least this is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Harrias  (he/him) • talk 14:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Coordinator note
At six weeks in and just the one support, the nomination is liable to be archived in the next week or so unless there's significant progress towards a consensus to promote. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Over the Christmas break? It has two supports now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Source and image review
Pretty sure that File:Marins appartenant à la défense de l'ile - Médiathèque de l'architecture et du patrimoine - AP62T103401.jpg pre-dates the CC licence and needs a different one. ALT text should probably be capitalized. Not all images have ALT text and I think they describe the image, instead of replacing its purpose in the article. 978-953-366-063-9 is apparently a broken ISBN, but otherwise the sources seem OK. Source formatting seems consistent too. Spot-check upon request and keep in mind this ain't a topic where I am familiar with. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 13:42, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that was a typo. Fixed. I will swap out this image shortly. AFAIK, alt text doesn't have to be in CAPS? The ISBN is correct, copied from the book itself. Will ping once I've replaced the image. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * G'day, I have swapped that image out, as while I expect it was published at the time and would be PD-ItalyGov, I can't prove it. The replacement image is a propaganda poster isued by the government at the time, what do you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Mmm, is the licence here in question? Re: ALT text, I prefer correct grammar and spelling. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:35, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi . I can't see an image licence there, am I missing something? There is a copyright symbol and photo credit claim by the French government, but how a photograph taken by the Italian Army can be copyrighted or even claimed for credit by the French government is beyond me. Can you also be clearer about which alt text you are referring to? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * The Taranto map ALT text isn't capitalized. I don't read that licence as the French government claiming rights on an Italian image, rather as the French government hosting the image without anything to say on its licence, us attributing that licence, and the image data insinuating a licence even though it doesn't apply - it's not uncommon for software to attribute a copyright status that doesn't exist. Is this a propaganda image or so that we could expect to be published soon after it was created? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi . You mean the initial letter? If so, fixed. I see a copyright symbol, which I assume means they are claiming copyright on it. Yes, any piece of propaganda of this type would have been published by public display as soon as it could be after production, in order to gain value from it in a timely manner after the event. The caption on the poster actually includes the "approved by the censor" authorisation from the government in the bottom right margin, ie APPROVATA DALLA CENSURA. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Aye, they (or perhaps the software) claims copyright but as stated by the licence they can't. So File:Marins appartenant à la défense de l'ile - Médiathèque de l'architecture et du patrimoine - AP62T103401.jpg should be OK to use. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I agree in principle, IF a publication before 1976 could be argued from some evidence. The PD-ItalyGov licence, which is on it at the moment, isn't really right to be fair, as I would need to at least be able to persuasively argue there was publication prior to 1976, which I can't. Given the nature of the image, it could have been published, but I haven't been able to find anywhere it was published prior to being published online by the French (obviously after 1976). And without a known author whose date of death is known, none of the pma licences can be used either. So, I don't think it is useable, and we'll have to go with the propaganda poster. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Eh, even in copyright cases we are not generally that strict. The reason why I asked about whether it is a propaganda photo is because such a photo is liable to be published soon after creation, while e.g a family photo may be unpublished for decades. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Have to say that in 80+ FAC nominations I've never had anyone say we aren't "that strict" about image licensing. My experience is that anything even slightly dubious licence-wise gets the heave-ho via FAC image reviews. The replacement image is actually a poster rather than a photo, and given it is propaganda, almost certainly published immediately after production. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support Comments from JennyOz
Hello PM, not much from me...

Description and construction
 * The torpedo tubes were mounted in pairs, with one pair mounted between the forecastle and bridge - second "mounted" not needed?
 * Yep, trimmed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

World War I
 * Not long after being commissioned, 79 T joined the rest of the 1st Torpedo Flotilla in an attempt to engage part of the French fleet operating in the southern Adriatic on 17 October 1914. - date placement is ambiguous? Maybe moved to after "joined the rest of the 1st Torpedo Flotilla" if that's what is meant?
 * Yes, moved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Led by Helgoland, the whole 1st Flotilla steamed to the Ionian Sea - this is the only place not using "1st Torpedo Flotilla ", is that intentional?
 * No, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * one targeting Rimini on 18 June - move Rimini link up to here
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * raided the Otranto Barrage - move this link up a sentence?
 * Done, with the explanation attached. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * the original (now duplicate) link was left behind unintentionally? JennyOz (talk) 06:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * often employed in the mine sweeping role and - one word minesweeping per elsewhere
 * changed to one word. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * According to the naval historian Zvonimir Freivogel, sources - ZF is already introduced above in Description section
 * Of course, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Szent István capsized less than three hours after being torpedoed,[43] and 79 rescued several members of Szent István's crew - her crew rather than repeat Szent István?
 * Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Pelogosa v Pelagosa - is different spelling intentional ie both are Palagruža?
 * Yes, typos. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Post World War I
 * Strojne Tovarne - is Iskra (company) or too tenuous?
 * I wasn't sure, but given you picked it up, I've linked it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Captions
 * The island of Pelogosa was garrisoned by Italian sailors in 1915 - is a sentence, add full stop?
 * Yes, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The Strait of Otranto was blockaded by the Allied navies from 1915 until the end of the war to stop the Austro-Hungarian Navy from leaving the Adriatic Sea - ditto
 * Ditto. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

And that's it. HNY! JennyOz (talk) 06:45, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * All done I reckon, ! Thanks for taking a look, and HNY to you too! Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:15, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks PM. I've added a comment above re Otranto Barrage links for you to pls check but am very happy to s'port. JennyOz (talk) 06:10, 15 January 2024 (UTC)


 * SC
 * Putting down a marker on this one. - SchroCat (talk) 11:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. Just one very minor comment here, about the IB. You have "Fate	stranded then scrapped"; maybe use a capital S on Stranded? (it would bring it into line with the capitalised "Assigned" for the other Fate). That's my lot. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)