Wikipedia:Featured article review/Arsenal F.C./archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by YellowAssessmentMonkey 23:37, 31 January 2010.

Review commentary

 * Notified: Qwghlm, Mattythewhite, Ed g2s, WikiProject Football

This is the oldest unreviewed sports FA, a fact which caused me to take a look at this article. What I found showed a few issues that, while not overwhelming, would be best resolved by the FAR process. Referencing is the main concern for me.  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 02:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 1c: The history section is noticeably light on references. A couple paragraphs are unreferenced, and a couple others have citations which don't appear to cover everything before them. Problems also exist with the references used; a couple sites used (Arseweb and Arsenal Shirts) appear to be fan or personal sites. Several dead links as well.
 * Replaced 3 of the 4 dead links with 1 archive.org copy and 2 changed urls. I've left the 4th, nufc.com, which has an archive.org copy but is a fansite. I'll try to go through the existing refs in the next couple of days to fill in missing dates, authors etc, and will replace any fansites if I can. Struway2 (talk) 12:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Update: have been through existing refs, tidying as best I can, and have replaced a few with more obviously reliable sources and added a few more. Struway2 (talk) 20:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 2c: Reference 2 is not formatted well. Not as important as the stuff above, but worth a mention.
 * Done. Struway2 (talk) 12:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 3: Alt text is now required for images in FAs.
 * Started to add ALT text -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Alt text all now added apart from the image in the "colours" section - I can't figure out how to do that one....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the alt text so far looks good. For the image in the "colours" section, please use the alt parameter that I just added to Football kit box. Eubulides (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I fixed that. Eubulides (talk) 18:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

What's happening with the two unsourced paras in history?  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 04:08, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Image problems
 * File:Trophy presentation Highbury 2004.JPG and File:Arsene Wenger.JPG: source verification failed.
 * Wenger image replaced with a new, sourcable one. Removed the other one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Arsenal crest 1888.png: no source.
 * File:Arsenal fc old crest small.png: two of the links supporting the claim that it is not copyrighted are broken. The third does not mention the copyright.
 * The third does in fact mention the copyright: "Arsenal have revamped their famous cannon crest as part of a major shake-up of the club's corporate image. The rebranding will give the Gunners a tighter grip on merchandising as they had been unable to copyright their old badge" (my highlighting). However, this link to Arsenal F.C.'s website states that "Firstly, as the VCC crest incorporated many separate elements introduced over a number of years, there was uncertainty surrounding its exact origination. Consequently, the Club was unable to copyright the crest." I've added this link to the image's description. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Emirates Stadium Arsenal.jpg: what does "photo taken...on Dennis Bergkamp's testimonial" mean? Is this photo by Dennis Bergkamp?! DrKiernan (talk) 14:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you kidding on the fourth point? There is nothing ambiguous about the description: the photo features a game (that is about to be played) at the Emirates Stadium, and the occasion is the testimonial match of Dennis Bergkamp. Chensiyuan (talk) 00:50, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course it's ambiguous. My objection stands. DrKiernan (talk) 08:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've changed the description to read "... before Dennis Bergkamp's testimonial match." which should clarify. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:06, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is also one unsourced para each in Colours and Stadiums. Hopefully these can all be taken care of quickly.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 16:07, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Have done these as best I can... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:25, 27 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This looks to be close to keeping without FARC, but there are dead links in the citations (The Times), unformatted citations (http://www.arsenal.com/usa/sh/news/news-archive/kroenke-increases-stake-in-arsenal-holdings), WP:MOSCAPS in the citations, and the image captions need to have a punctuation review per WP:MOS (sentence fragments should not have final punctuation). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed unformatted cite and MOSCAPS, also added missing publication dates and moved publishers to "publisher" parameter where needed
 * Fixed image captions
 * Can't find a dead link. Unless you meant ref#35 "Suspension of the Plumstead Ground", which doesn't come from an online source.
 * One thing I was confused by, your edit summary which said websites shouldn't be italicised. This article uses the cite templates for formatting. The documentation at cite web says where online items are part of a larger "work", such as a book, periodical or website (my italics), that name should be supplied at the "work" parameter, and the publisher if any should go in the "publisher" parameter. This is illustrated in the examples, and results in the website name being italicised. Is the objection to italicisation something specific to FAC, of which I have little experience? Or are you saying that the output generated by the cite templates doesn't comply with the MOS? and if so, shouldn't someone mention it at the relevant talk page. Or have I just misunderstood something as usual :-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Much better. Whatever the dead link was, I can't find it now, but it was when I clicked on a link from The Times. Yes, there is a long-standing contradiction between WP:ITALICS and cite web: I will raise this at MOS, and you are the first to have noticed and pointed this out! The "Managers" section has problems; it has a citation needed tag, and we can't cite another Wiki article (Wiki is not a reliable source). Sandy Georgia (Talk) 14:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Sourced Wenger's long service and being first foreign manager. Removed best & worst manager by win percentage: it's an arbitrary choice of how to order managerial success, no idea how to briefly source it, and detailed figures are available at the main manager list. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I left some more sample edits of items that should be reviewed, but I'm satisfied and probably won't revisit. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Been through again per sample edits. Also added couple of refs for unsourced bit of history section. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just had another look at the article, and I'm quite happy with what has been done. I would have no objections if this was closed without moving to FARC.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments—I think this is quite well written. Could do with a few fixes throughout, but not a long job. I'd like to see this work on and kept, if possible. Overlinking is a major problem.
 * I've upsized a few of the tiny images.
 * "Holloway, North London"—can we pipe so that "North London" isn't blue? If the reader hits "Holloway", they get a direct link to the broader geographical entity, don't they? Let's not dilute the valuable links at the top with "chain links".
 * Some of the pipes are a little vague: "Southern" ... ah, that means "South of England". Unless the boundary is important, why not bin the link and just write "first club in southern England"? Simpler for the readers?
 * "in this time"—better "during ..."
 * "which have evolved through history" sounds a little precious ... a bit long-term. Ah, you mean its history; can you add?
 * "drastic"—readers are unprepared for that. "dramatic"? Since I don't know the geography of London suburbs, I can't make out why it's less extreme. A mystery to me.
 * "Arsenal have a large fanbase, who hold a string of long-standing rivalries with several other clubs"—hold a string of awards/prizes, I was expecting. Perhaps simpler, like this: "which has long-standing ...".
 * BrEng ... I'd hyphenate "third-richest".
 * The link to "British culture" seems far too vague. I can cope without the link, provided it's more specific further down (where more specific section- or daughter-article-links to Br cult could be provided).
 * Do we still need to bold synonyms, other names, way down in the first section? I thought that practice was only for the lead. It looks messy.
 * Chain link: Royal_Arsenal has a link to "Woolwich" in your face when you go there. The blue can thus be reduced in this article: try to direct readers more specifically and judiciously to link-targets, and they'll be more likely to hit on them.
 * pneumonia: doesn't need linking.
 * The year-in-English-football "hidden" links, which readers will ignore, thinking they're plain year-links—I'm putting them in the "See also" section (unpiped), which is much more effective. Or ... see what I've done with the first one, which is now an explicit gateway to all of them. The rest could be unlinked to control the blue disease. There are an awful lot of blue years cluttering. Tony   (talk)  15:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Have given it a copyedit with emphasis on overlinking. In the prose sections, left in those season and cup-final links which seemed particularly relevant to Arsenal, and added (see Seasons in English football) in the history section. The blue season links remain in the Honours section, but have ensured they link to specific articles e.g. cup or shield finals; in this non-prose section, readers would expect year-links to be present and to go somewhere relevant. Struway2 (talk) 10:50, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Move to FARC, this FAR has been hanging around for months; why not advance it to FARC to get things moving? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:24, 3 January 2010 (UTC)


 * All files should be on Commons

FARC commentary

 * Suggested featured article criterion concerns are MOS and prose.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '')  02:33, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned about the History section. One paragraph on the first 33 years, two paragraphs covering 34 years from 1945-1979. It's not really recentism (Chapman's era also gets close attention, with a paragraph on 5 years in the 30s), and it's not entirely without basis, focussing on periods of success, but I do think it could be smoothed a little. Also, not sure the Emirates info is in the right place in the History. --Dweller (talk) 15:24, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Grudging Keep as a Spurs supporter....I massaged the prose a bit and think it is okay now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:55, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm notoriously MOS-blind, but I'm giving the prose a further treatment, so that it feels really well looked-after during its time in this health spa. --Dweller (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - I could not find any prose or MOS issues. Reads well. --mav (Urgent FACs/FARs) 22:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.