Wikipedia:Featured article review/Darjeeling/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by YellowAssessmentMonkey 23:46, 1 March 2010.

Review commentary

 * Notified: Dwaipayanc, WikiProject India

I am nominating this featured article for review because it has multiple issues. There is a severe lack of sourcing for a start. I question the reliability of sources such as Darjnet and Zubin. The article is similar in length to Gangtok but much worse in standard. I'm sure there are a few cases of bad prose too. Also see the discussion that led to this FAR. Spiderone 08:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 08:52, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * done SBC-YPR (talk) 17:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for adding all that alt text. What you've added is almost all good. However, the alt text for File:India West Bengal locator map.svg is "Map of India showing location of West Bengal", which isn't helpful to the typical reader who may know where India is but not where West Bengal is; can you please improve that? (Please see WP:ALT for guidance.) Also, three one of the files still lack alt text: File:Darjeeling.jpg, File:West Bengal locator map.svg, File:Darjeeling.ogg ; can you please fix that? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 00:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added alt text for File:Darjeeling.jpg. File:Darjeeling.ogg is an audio file and does not require alt text. As to the other two, they are not directly linked from the infobox, and I'm still not very clear as to how to write alt text for a locator map. Could you please help out? Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 17:55, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that. The alt text for File:Darjeeling.ogg turns out to be a template issue; I've suggested a fix at Template talk:Audio  so we needn't worry about it here. To specify alt text for those two maps, please use the base_map_alt and inset_map_alt parameters of Infobox Indian jurisdiction; I just now updated that template and its documentation. Eubulides (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * done All images now possess alt text. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 16:30, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing all that. Eubulides (talk) 18:40, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll basically copy my post from the talk page: What makes these sources reliable? Most of them look rather questionable: no author credits, no proof of reputability, et cetera.


 * http://www.darjnet.com/darjeeling/darjeeling/history/darjhistory.htm
 * http://www.darjeelingnews.net/darjeeling_tea.html
 * http://www.exploredarjeeling.com/history.htm
 * http://www.zubin.com/darjeeling/general.htm
 * http://www.darjeelingnews.net/tourist-attractions/padmaja-naidu-himalayan-zoological-park.html
 * http://darjeelingnews.net/geography.html
 * http://www.darjeelingnews.net/tea_facts.html
 * http://www.darjeelingnews.net/darjeeling_festivals.html


 * done. All the above references have been either replaced with more reliable ones or deleted altogether. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 17:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Also:


 * Unsourced sentences in the "Economy," "Culture" and "Demographics" subesections (most which I slapped with fact tags).
 * Unqualified "and so on" in the economy section. I think that resorting to "and so on" is sloppy writing. It would be better to say "including" or "such as."
 * "Media" section is entirely unsourced.
 * "Culture" section has an undue weight on foods, mostly unsourced.
 * Plenty more I'm sure I missed.

Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 19:19, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, I have either sourced or deleted most of the unsourced sentences. The prose has been copyedited and upgraded in many places. As regards media, I could find no references - must the entire section be done away with? Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 17:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Good work all around. If you can't source the media section, I would say delete it. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 04:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * FA criteria concerns are sourcing.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket '') (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 04:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I moved it down because many of the paragraphs have one source and they only account for the end of the para.  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 04:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delist, concerns about referencing standards. Cirt (talk) 08:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delist Even with the removal of the unreferenced section, there are still noticeable gaps in the references. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 19:31, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Delist - The prose is mostly good but sections such as "climate", "utility services" and "culture" are poorly sourced. Spiderone  19:34, 25 November 2009 (UTC) The sourcing is better now.  Spiderone  08:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: someone has been working on this article, yet we have three immediate and vague delists which don't specify one singlething about what text is lacking sources or what are consider poor sources. This is poor use of FAR, and this trend should stop. The FARC period lasts at least two weeks, and as long as editors are working on the article, reviewers who enter an early Delist should be prepared to say why, so work can continue, and should be prepared to strike the delist if issues are addressed.  I don't see valid reasoning in either of the three delists above.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:41, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment. Efforts have been made to address the above concerns. Could the reviewers please point out any specific issues that remain to be addressed? Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 08:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * At a second look, there doesn't seem to be anything glaring now. Retracted. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 18:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Stricken. Cirt (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Lots of fixin' needed still; there are numerous MoS errors and faulty citations; I left sample edits. WP:ITALICS are only used on journals, periodicals and newspapers, not websites. Author formatting is inconsistent. Page numbers and publishers are missing and some info is outdated (I tagged one sample). In one section I read, I found a grammatical error. I fixed several WP:DASHes, but the rest should be checked. There is WP:OVERLINKing. There were WP:ACCESS and WP:MOS breaches. Conversions are missing on some numbers. That's my first pass; I'll check back after more work is done. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Done, mostly. Thanks for the sample edits - based on them, further corrections have been made, and all citations are now uniformly formatted. Outdated information has been brought up to date. Dashes, access breaches, conversions and overlinking have largely been addressed. Please comment if any further changes have to be made. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Why is there a hanging citation at the end of the "Notes" section? Did you check the rest of the text for outdated info (I haven't read the full article)?  There are still missing page nos (Lee 1971) and publishers (^ "Constitution of Gorkha Janmukti Morcha". http://www.gorkhajanmuktimorcha.org/constitution.php. Retrieved 2009-05-18.)  Newspapers that are available in hard print should be in WP:ITALICS.  Website should not be in italics, and accessdates are missing (^ "Darjeeling Toy Train". Theme India: Train Tourism in India. IndiaLine. http://www.indialine.com/travel/trains/darjeeling-toy-train.html.)  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 16:05, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * References formatted, hanging citation and book without page number moved to Further Reading section. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 18:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What is the Falling Rain Map citing, and why isn't it attached to that text as a footnote? Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:47, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Falling Rain Map didn't specifically cite anything, but was merely a general reference for the climate of Darjeeling. That's why it wasn't tagged with a footnote. Another editor has since removed the reference, and I'm not sure as to whether to restore it. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 14:17, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, in that case then, it should have been listed as "Further reading" or an "External link", but I'm not sure it's needed. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. In that case, would it be a good idea to restore it, out of abundant caution? This would involve reverting a previous edit. Also, are there any other outstanding issues with the article that need resolving? Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 14:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Featured articles are supposed to be comprehensive, meaning that theoretically, that link shouldn't be needed-- anything useful in the link should already be covered in the article. I will look at the article in more detail as soon as I have time.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 14:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I took a quick look at the article at User:YellowMonkey's suggestion and I think, while the article is well-written and formatted, there are concerns with 1b (comprehensiveness) and significant issues with 1c (sourcing) clauses of the FA criterion.
 * Sourcing issues:
 * Most of the article is sourced to news reports, and government/non-government websites. While news reports may be acceptable for recent (say post 2000) developments, and government websites for basic statistical (eg, census data) and organizational information (eg, about civic administration and infrastructure), the article over-relies on such sources in almost all sections.
 * Why is Urban Management in Darjeeling Himalaya a reliable, let alone authoritative, source ? It seems to be a web article published on an online forum, and IMO should be used only as wikipedia articles are supposed to be used - to understand the background, and to locate better sources and information; not as a source itself. (By the way, the reference doesn't support the statement: "...Darjeeling was ruled intermittently by the kingdoms of Bengal, Nepal and Sikkim")
 * The Further Reading section lists several books, but only 1 of them seems to have been used a reference.
 * Comprehensiveness issues:
 * No map of the town (with or without the surroundings) ?
 * How big is the town (area) ? Any information on the GDP; contribution of tea industry and tourism ? Languages spoken ? Local flora and fauna (if notable) ?
 * The article tells us that Darjeeling is famous for the Darjeeling Himalayan Railway, but never explains what is special about the railway.
 * The article says, "Darjeeling is regarded as a centre of music and a niche for musicians and music admirers. Singing and playing musical instruments is a common pastime among the resident population, who take pride in the traditions and role of music in cultural life." These are quite generic statements (incidentally, not supported by the cited reference, ), and don't even tell the reader what kind of music is being talked about (folk, religious, Hindi film, Western ? )
 * The article says that Darjeeling is a "popular filming destination". Then it specifically lists a song from Aradhana that was filmed there; why ? If there is something special about the filming of this song (did it start a trend of filming in Darjeeling ?), the article should say so; else it should not single out 1 of supposedly many movies that have been filmed there.
 * It would be good to have some more content on how the British, Nepali and Bengali cultures have shaped the town (assuming sources can be found). There is some mention of this in the Culture and Education sections, but I wonder if someone has looked at it at more depth.
 * Miscellaneous (these are not determinative concerns at FAR; I just happened to spot them)
 * Use instead of  for references that don't appear within the body of the text.
 * Why is "The region is relatively new in geological terms and unstable in nature, suffering from a host of environmental problems.[2] Environmental degradation, including denudation of the surrounding hills has adversely affected Darjeeling's appeal as a tourist destination." in the Demographics section ?
 * "Darjeeling town comes under the jurisdiction of the district police ..." Surely not (unless we are talking about a police state!). Rephrase to clarify that policing in Darjeeling ...
 * Gorkha leads to a disambiguation page.
 * "... only location in eastern India that witnesses high footfalls of foreign tourists." Not familiar with the underlined term in this context. By the way, the sentence is a direct quote from the source and should either be paraphrased, or be in quotes. (also keep in mind the 1c concerns and consider if this is the best available source on tourism in Darjeeling)
 * I can help with accessing journal articles if you need particular references; per this brief discussion at INB, there are surely better sources available than the ones currently used in the article. I have not commented on writing and formatting issues, since these are very minor in the article, and are not worth bothering with until sourcng and content issues are resolved. Let me know if you need me to explain or expand on any particular comments. Abecedare (talk) 05:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Replies and some queries, in response to each point above:
 * Sourcing issues:
 * Most of the information sourced from websites consists of post-2000 info and basic data. Could you please point out specific instances of over-reliance on these sources?
 * Agreed, will replace it with a better source over the weekend.
 * There were separate sections earlier for References and Further Reading, but since the former contained only one book it was merged with the latter. Should they be split again?
 * Comprehensiveness issues:
 * Is a map essential? None of Ahmedabad, Belgrade, Canberra or Washington, D.C., to cite a few FAs, has a map of the city: like the present article, they all contain locator maps in the infobox.
 * The municipal area is mentioned under Civic Administration as well as in the infobox. GDP information doesn't see to be available, will keep looking though. The significance of tea and tourism is generically mentioned; if GDP figures are found they will be incorporated. Languages spoken are mentioned in the Demographics section, while flora and fauna recieve a brief mention in the Geography section.
 * The significance of the DHR is that it is a UNESCO World Heritage site, and only the second railway line in the world to receive the recognition. The first is mentioned in the lead, and the second in the Transport section.
 * Work in progress, will be clarified.
 * Done.
 * Sources are being searched for. There is also a mention of this in the History section.
 * Miscellaneous
 * Done.
 * The first statement is not really relevant and has been deleted. The second statement, and the one now before it, refer to the detrimental effects of population growth on the environent and the town in general, and are therefore located in the Demographics section.
 * Done.
 * Done.
 * Done.
 * Also, the search for sources is still in progress, and I should be able to finalise a list by this weekend, after which I'll contact you for a quick review of the sources before beginning substantive edits to the article. In the meantime, please clarify the queries above. Regards, SBC-YPR (talk) 13:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the responses SBC. here are brief replies to the main points:
 * Sourcing
 * Here are some examples of news, government, or generic website sources used in the article that should be replaced by more authoritative sources (the quoted citation number corresponds to this version of the article): 1, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14c, ... In contrast the use of 15, 22, 23, 24 is fine in my opinion, while 18, 21 can be argued either way. The problem with relying on non-authoritative sources is that even though the individual facts may be verifiable, the article is likely to miss out on important details and context, and may get due weight wrong.
 * The issue is not with the merging or splitting of References and Further Reading sections. I was simply pointing out that better sources on the subject of the article do exist, but have not been used.
 * Comprehensiveness'
 * I think a map is highly desirable for completeness, and ideally for a hilly place like Darjeeling, the article should have a topographic map. But I am going to defer to other reviewers opinion on this point.
 * You are right that the area and languages are indeed mentioned in the article (sorry, I missed them somehow!). The article includes some mention of the flora (though the sentences are unsourced), but are there any facts about the fauna that is worth mentioning ? (The writings of naturalist Brian Houghton Hodgson, or books on him, may be a useful source).
 * DHR is not notable because it received a World Heritage site listing; it received the listing because it is notable, and the reader should be told what makes it distinctive enough to belong to that category.
 * Let me know if you want me to expand upon any of the above or previous comments. I am not certain of the FAR protocols, but I guess, it would be better to have any detailed discussion on the article talk page. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment — could a climate table be added?  Aaroncrick  ( talk )  Review me! 06:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * How are we going with regards to this article?  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket )  01:08, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - FAR concerns have been addressed to my satisfaction. I don't think that the remaining issues described above are serious enough to warrant de-listing. A map especially is not needed since few other city FAs have or need them. -- mav (Urgent FACs/FARs) 01:39, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Good work by everybody. I had screwed up long ago by getting some filthy references. Hometech (talk) 20:03, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep The article has been thoroughly revised while at FARC, and the sourcing standards especially have been improved. While there are a few further improvements I would suggest (expanding the lede a bit for example; also not a big fan of the subsections in the History section; the Further reading section can be trimmed; and one or more maps added) - as it stands, I think, the article is worthy of being an FA. Kudos to SBC-YPR for the work he put in and the other editors who chipped in. Abecedare (talk) 14:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Note THere is one "clarification needed" tag that needs to be addressed. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and removed the tag, that I had added and that SBC-YPR had commented upon on the article talkpage. I checked the source (Dasgupta 1999) and the article reflects what it says. I must admit that the source description is a bit translucent to me but my interpretation is that at the time of Indian independence there were fears that a segment of the population in and around Darjeeling would not accept Indian nationality and would demand that the region join Nepal, but eventually the Gorkhas opted to ask for greater autonomy instead. Anyway, under the circumstances, it is perhaps best to use the source language ("Nepali nationality") instead of attempting our own "clarification". Abecedare (talk) 05:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep now that everything's fixed. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 00:08, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 *  Conditional Keep. I've been through the prose and it seems to be acceptable quality. It suffers from overlinking, and I've delinked quite a few common terms and other bothersome items. My only remaining concern is the image captioned "The GNLF flag", which seems oddly placed since you don't even mention the GNLF until much later in the article. This could be fixed by moving the flag to the Civic administration section or mentioning the GNLF at the end of the History section. At any rate, we shouldn't force the reader to scroll way down to discover the meaning. -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  20:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Moved the image under "Civic administration". GNLF was mentioned in the last paragraph of "History" already, I wikilinked it.--Dwaipayan (talk) 23:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, looks good. I think it is ready. -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  05:08, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.