Wikipedia:Featured article review/Free will/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 09:33, 8 June 2008.

Review commentary

 * previous FAR
 * Main contributors, philosophy and religion projects notified.


 * Lead section should be about twice its current length to meet the lead section requirements and therein summarize the article properly, especially considering the great length of the article (I note that this was missed in the last FAR, though this hardly surprises me...)
 * Too much attention seems to be given to (free will in) Buddhism and Hinduism, especially the latter which is also treated in free will in theology, which has its own summarized section further down. If it's to be part of the broader theology article it shouldn't be treated specially here too.
 * It seems that editors are struggling just to keep the article maintained (maintenance not being a requirement, though it should be). I (having been recruited to help out, even though this is a topic I know little about) reverted a dubious edit tonight that had remained for 3 days.

This was made an FA very early on in the history of Wikipedia, and though it has survived a review a couple of years ago I don't think it quite meets current standards. I have been putting off an FAR for some time but it's clear the problems aren't going to be addressed very quickly. The article needs some time to improve (and hopefully find some knowledgeable guardians); only then can it return to FA status. Richard001 (talk) 11:39, April 24, 2008


 * Part of the issue with this article is that all of the editors who have worked in the past to maintain and improve the article, including User:Lacatosias, User:Bmorton3, and User:SnowFire have all since been driven away from wikipedia, and no qualified editors have come along to replace them (check their edit histories, and see BMorton's note on his talk page). I myself am much less active now due to real-life work-load, and can barely keep up with the trolls and vandals to keep the page from going backwards. A look at the diff between the version that was "kept" in the previous FAR and the current version shows that there have been some changes, some good, some not as good, but overall, the current version is recognizably similar to the version that was kept.  Unless some new editors materialize out of thin air (despite the fact that they haven't so far, in several attempts to elicit help), or the FAR editors decide these concerns are not sufficient to de-list, this article will be de-listed.  I absolutely cannot do the work it would take to keep the star. Edhubbard (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Note that this malformed nom wasn't submitted until April 25; please notify per the instructions at the top of WP:FAR, following the sample on other FARs listed on this page. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 07:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Diff since last FAR. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 07:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you in agreement that it isn't up to FA standard anymore though, Edhubbard? I'm the only one that's saying it isn't; you're free to disagree with me ( or are you? [free will humour] ). Richard001 (talk) 11:56, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I have trimmed some of the Buddhist/Hindu content and consolidated the sections. Skomorokh 16:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thinking about it as a section on Eastern philosophy (<speaking of short leads!) rather than religion changes my mind somewhat on the balance issue, but it still seems slightly awkward that free will in theology still includes a section on Hinduism. But the universe isn't exactly packaged into non-overlapping categories (or magisteria, if you like (and there's a 'good article' with a crappy lead too)). To be pedantic I think we should change the 'main article' tag to 'further information', since a true summary of the F.W. in theology article would mention Hinduism too. That basically just leaves the lead. I've read the article a couple of times myself but I think I would still have to read it once again to compile a longer summary for the lead. Maybe someone more familiar with the subject/article could take a shot at it? I might even have a go myself if nobody else can manage, if it's going to save it from delisting. Richard001 (talk) 00:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It's absurd to use the term "philosophy" to refer only to modern and contemporary Western philosophy, as the article did. You would be hard pushed to find a clearer example of systemic bias. I do think the Hindu/Buddhist sections are more philosophy than theology, but if we are to have a Philosophy section and a Theology section, the theology and philosophy of Hindu/Buddhism should be separated. In contemporary Western philosophical circles, what this article refers to as theology is simply philosophy of religion, which might be the way to go here. I'll have a go at the lede in the next few days if no-one else bites. Skomorokh  11:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * Suggested FA criteria concerns are LEAD (2a), focus (4), general cleanup (2). Marskell (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Yes, ideally there'd be some clean-up: for instance the lead would be expanded, and the article isn't quite as obsessively referenced as is the current standard at FAC (for good or for ill).  Some attention by people versed in the topic could no doubt give it some polish.  But overall I find this a quite impressive article that still stands up well. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 10:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we need to decide on this one. If it doesn't meet the lead criteria, it should be a straight fail regardless of any other reasons for keeping. I'm way too busy at the moment to expand it, so unless somebody else does soon I think it should be delisted. See the 'to do' list for other concerns. Richard001 (talk) 02:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sorry Richard. First, there normally has to be enough votes on something for any action to be taken, and it looks like this hasn't generated enough responses in months now. In fact, since it's been in FARC for almost a month with no movement, it seems that there is really no hope that it will generate enough of a response to make it better, or to delist it (that is, it is not for you to decide what must or must not be done with the article, that is for the FAR "cabal" to decide). Second, while I admire your motives, there are so many other articles that are so much worse that we should all be working on that I just can't justify this. No, it's not perfect, but it's not as bad as you keep making it out to be. Edhubbard (talk) 07:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see the lead as a dealbreaker. It is short but it mentions all of the sections at least briefly. An extra sentence or two wouldn't hurt. Might also trim the See also and External links a touch. Beyond that, I am going to keep this as it's overdue. Marskell (talk) 09:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.