Wikipedia:Featured article review/Gyeongju/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Marskell 18:09, 15 October 2009.

Review summary

 * ''wikiProjects notified. Author has retired.

Article fails 1c. Many sections and paragraphs are entirely uncited.  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) paid editing=POV 13:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I will work on that. Please hold on the review for a while.--Caspian blue 14:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * sure. If work is steady, it can take up to 3 months  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! ) paid editing=POV 14:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Two of the images, File:Burial-Mounds-at-GyeongJu.jpg and File:Temple-at-gyeongju.jpg appear to be missing permissions, or at least I couldn't find it at the web site given as the source. The dead links in the references should be updated. DrKiernan (talk) 10:57, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I replaced the images with File:Korea-Gyeongju-Bulguksa-32.jpg and File:Gyeongju-2.jpg. And the dead links seem to be a result of updates by the Gyeongju City site, so I will replace the broken links with correct ones.--Caspian blue 01:09, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Alt text done; thanks. Images need alt text as per WP:ALT. This is for WP:ACCESSIBILITY to the visually impaired. Eubulides (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * Suggested FA criteria concern are citations, alt text. Also note the recent change to WP:WIAFA (1c) requiring "high-quality" sources. FAQ?  YellowMonkey  ( cricket calendar poll! '') paid editing=POV 01:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Meaning, please? I've uploaded images of Gyeongju to Commons to enhance the article (I'm planing to expand some sections so..), so I've been not much paying attention to editing/replacing sources in the article, but I will get back to the replacing sources in the next week.--Caspian blue
 * I've started tweaking things now that refs are being added. I won't be closing this obviously  YellowMonkey  ( cricket photo poll! ) paid editing=POV 04:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hold. Caspianblue is doing a heck of a job improving the article, but it's still got a ways to go. I've added a raft of fact tags to aid in placing additional citations, but the article needs an entire new section dealing with utilities like electricity, water, and communications. If Caspianblue wasn't working on the article, I'd vote for Delist, but I hope it'll continue to improve and I can change my vote. :) JKBrooks85 (talk) 08:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have enabled the toolbox at the upper right corner of this page, to make it easier to debug problems with alt text and with external links (both problems exist). Eubulides (talk) 02:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: Work appears to be continuing, but I'm concerned that virtually all of the citations are in Korean. I suppose that's unavoidable, but it means I can't check them. ;) JKBrooks85 (talk) 02:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Koreans do not use English in real life, and academic studies on Korea are far behind compared to Chinese and Japanese studies in Anglosphere, so high quality English sources are really really scarce. Except history section and tourism, there are virtually no English sources even though the city that once was the capital is the third most visited tourist place and has the 2nd most cultural properties and treasures in South Korea. I've tried to minimalize using sources from the government, so many of my sources are from online Korean encyclopedias and newspapers with high credentials but written in Korean language. To break through the difficulty, I'm planning to seek another type of copywriters who can read Korean language. Or if you have any doubt in your mind, please just ask me to quote specific passages and translate them.--Caspian blue 11:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was just a bit of wishful thinking on my part. I did a bit of searching but ran into the problems you mentioned. Given your editing history, I've got no problem accepting the citations IGF. JKBrooks85 (talk) 21:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Note, the prose is very rough, currently not in shape to meet 1a. As work progresses, I'll look in to see if examples are needed.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I know the prose is not well written in the current stage even though the original writer is a native English speaker. As the article is getting expanded, my grammatical errors (I'm not a native speaker of English) should be fixed as well. So I've tried to find copywriters, but some of them declined my request and one ediors promised to edit the article next week due to their involvement in other works. So I was planning to expand the article this week since reviewers above demand me to add new sections (I've added health/utility/sports sections as well as expanded other sections) and then expect other promised copywriters would take the job of proofreading/copywriting. So please give me more time, or would you give me some direction, where I could find skilled copywriters? Thanks.--Caspian blue 11:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Time's not an issue. As long as work continues, this FAR will stay open. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Definately avoid saying things like "Today Gyeongju is a typical medium-sized city sharing the economic, demographic, and social trends that have shaped modern South Korean culture" in the intro. Too subjective. How exactly do you define a "typical medium sized city"? The later on in the article you claim "In the 20th century, the city has remained relatively small, no longer ranking among the major cities of Korea.". Either it is a typically sized city or small city or what?? I would remove this loose definition.. Himalayan   12:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments by Himalayan
 * That passage was written by the original writer, and I could not know what source he used for that. Per your request for clarification, I modified it to

--Caspian blue 15:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the population/data for the sub divisions by referenced? You mention a source but it needs to be verifiable..

The last paragraph of the Economy section is unreferenced except for the final sentence. Maybe you could add a source to back up the history? Himalayan   15:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Himalayan  15:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The population/data is referenced. Also The whole last paragraph at Economy is referenced with the same sources as used for the last sentence.--Caspian blue 15:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment. Some alt text is now present (thanks), and is a very good start, but has a few problems : Eubulides (talk) 17:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Five images still lack alt text. Please use the "alt text" button in the toolbox at upper right to see them. (Warning: that button uses a cached version of the page and can sometimes give delayed results.)
 * The phrase "the city's name" in "On the center of the map, the city's name is put on a red circle." cannot be verified by a non-expert (non-Korean-speaking) reader simply by looking at the image as per WP:ALT. Please change "the city's name" to "慶州", which can be verified. Normally it's better to avoid Unicode text but there is an exception when transcribing prominent characters (see WP:ALT).
 * The word "Buddhist" in "A front view of a Buddhist shrine" also cannot be verified by a non-expert simply by looking at the image, and should also be removed, or moved to the caption.
 * "Illustration of principal mountains and drainage patterns of Gyeongju" simply repeats part of the caption and does not capture the gist of the map. Please see WP:ALT for suggestions here. A similar problem exists for the long text beginning "Simplified map of the administrative divisions of Gyeongju".
 * Phrases like "A front view of" (twice), "A side shot of", "An under view of", "A slightly side shot of", "On the far right,", "A side view of" are not that useful and should be removed as per WP:ALT.
 * The proper name "General Kim Yusin" should be removed from the alt text as per WP:ALT.
 * I hope the revision of alts is okay now.--Caspian blue 23:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * All the problems noted above have been fixed; thanks! One new one has been introduced, though, and needs fixing: the alt text for the maps focus on unimportant visual aspects such as colors and icon shapes, and neglect the essence of what the maps tell the reader. Please see WP:ALT for advice here. For example, for File:Gyeongjumts.png the current alt text is "Moutains in Gyeongju are marked as triangles. Mountains with a high height are colored in black, otherwise in gray. Gyeongju is colored with white. Outside regions of Gyeongju and rivers and a sea are respectively colored in peach and light blue.", but better alt text would be something like "A river runs from south to north through the region, draining most of it. Half the tallest mountains are on the southern border; other mountains are mostly in the west, clustered in the northwest." Please fix the alt text for all the maps in a similar way. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 02:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I hope this time the above raised roblems regarding alt texts are now fixed.--Caspian blue 06:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that one map has been fixed, and the other maps have been greatly improved. The alt text is pretty close to done now. However, I noticed three problems.
 * The alt text for maps still contains phrases discussing irrelevant details that should be removed as per WP:ALT. These phrases include "with a peach background", "in indigo pink and the rest of the province is colored in orange", "is colored in yellow", "are mostly colored in yellow-green", "colored in mint green", "with red", "colored in ivory against a dark beige background", "colored in light green", "with pink", "is colored in green". (It can be useful to note that something is highlighted, but it's not useful to say exactly how it's highlighted.)
 * The word "lied" is surely a typo, no?
 * The phrase "meaning "Hospital and Korean traditional medicine hospital affiliated to Dongguk University" fails WP:ALT and should be removed, since we can't assume the typical reader can read Korean.
 * Eubulides (talk) 16:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I really hope that this time all problems raised are gone with my copy-editing.--Caspian blue 21:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks good now, thanks. I it a bit more as per WP:ALT and WP:ALT, and also  Template:Gyeongju subdivisions and  Template:North Gyeongsang as per WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 00:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

If progress is still being made, a sources review should be done. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 19:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm still working on expansion.--Caspian blue 23:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments
 * "57 BC–935 AD": please read MoS on dashes. Same for "urban-rural complex". And see MoS on hanging hyphens: "small and medium-sized cities". And see MoS on minus signs for the table?
 * Why is "tourism" linked? And why "foothills", "drainage", etc? Please remove common-term links throughout.
 * Images: why so tiny? Consequently, we squint to see what they are, and the captions wrap awkwardly. The text on the map needs a powerful magnifying glass: I don't have one.

Generally, the prose is pretty good. Tony  (talk)  09:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. Is File:Gyeongjumts.png "the map" to which you're referring to? Yes, the letters look quite small. I will increase the text soon. However, the first image at History section at 280px looks too big to my eyes. As far as I've known, except few cases (such as lead images, maps, or articles focusing on images), forced images are discouraged. May I ask you what resolution are you setting at? I've checked the layout with 13, 15, 17, and 19 inch monitors in various resolutions, but the images looked fine to me. (See Talk:Gyeongju) The default setting of images on Wikipedia might be small, but since other people could have different opinions on this, I will follow to the consensus.-Caspian blue 11:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I had to revert the image setting at 280px per WP:Images, WP:IMGSIZE and MOS:IMAGES, but I will implement the map about mountains and drainage.--Caspian blue 21:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I increased the text size and updated the color scheme.--Caspian blue 00:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note about Korean sources Although I have tried to use English sources, but except history and tourism sections, virtually very little or no source could be found. So I've mainly used three reliable encyclopedias (Encyclopedia of Korean Culture, Korean version of Encyclopædia Britannica, Doosan Encyclopedia) that provide information online and several newspapers written in Korean (not direct translation to avoid plagiarism). However, it is shame that many articles of such major newspapers or media in South Korea have not been created yet. Therefore, several links are also "red links" if you see the reference section on the bottom of the page. As you would be curious at to know what "Ilbo" and "Simun" mean; they respectively refer to "daily news" and "newspaper" in Korean such as The Chosun Ilbo, JoongAng Ilbo, The Dong-a Ilbo, Daegu Ilbo or Gyeongju Sinmun] and [[Kookje Sinmun. Unless Korean newspaper/media companies prefer styling with English translation, transliteration is commonly used for Korean media-related articles. I've also used many Korean academic sources from reputable universities. I hope this will help to rectify any concern about Korean sources. Thanks.--Caspian blue 12:04, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia policy (WP:IMGSIZE) we should as a rule use the default thumb or thumb|upright sizes and not set images to a fixed size. There are exceptions to this outlined at MOS:IMAGES, but the only such exceptions in this article are IMO the maps. Also per the MOS, "Do not place left-aligned images directly below a subsection-level heading (=== or lower)". I'll try and do a bit of cleanup with regard to images sizes/placement on this basis. Some of the captions could do with a little work, but I'm afraid I don't understand Tony's comment above ("the captions wrap awkwardly"). I'll try and fix the hyphens/dashes/minus signs issue that Tony raised, though.
 * Regarding images

Per Caspian blue's request I shall try and do a bit of copyediting and look at the image captions and alt text, hopefully within the next week.

Caspian: Can you do anything to improve File:Gyeongjumts.png? It may be an idea to request improvement at WP:GL/MAP. Also, can you check refs #73, 155, 156, 157, 177? The Checklinks tool identifies these as dead links. PC78 (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, PC78. I have read the dash things, but I could not find what difference "-" and "–" and "—". (I'm dull at such manual parts) As for the source, the first links works fine, but the others from Gyeongju Sinmun are currently under construction.:-( They were added on Sept.10, and worked fine, but well....I shall replace other news sources. --Caspian blue 00:21, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I've adjusted the images slightly. WP:PICTURE recommends that if image width is specified it should be at least 300px, so I've increased the map to that size (also makes it easier to see). File:Korea-Gyeongju-Bulguksa-Dabotap Pagoda-01.jpg now uses "upright" rather than a fixed width. MOS:IMAGES also says "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other"; that may still be a problem for the "Tourism" section. PC78 (talk) 00:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just been throgh the article and fixed a few dash/hyphen issues I found, fixed a few dates and de-linked a few years. I've also used convert for all the measurements, though not in the "Utilities" section for kW or tonnes because I'm not sure if they need converting or what they need converting to. PC78 (talk) 01:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I deleted the (temporarily or not) deal links and replaced with other sources.--Caspian blue 18:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Korean name: is the hangul for Gyeongju 경주 or 경주시? The infobox gives both, and it's not obvious (to me) why. PC78 (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is like calling 'Gyeongju' or 'City of Gyeongju' (or Gyeongju city) (corresponding to the order of your above comment). It is commonly called 경주, but officially 경주시.--Caspian blue 12:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep It's been 11 weeks with no delists. Images check OK. Substantially sourced. Tony says the prose is "pretty good". DrKiernan (talk) 08:06, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.