Wikipedia:Featured article review/Llywelyn the Great/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by YellowAssessmentMonkey 01:04, 25 March 2009.

Review commentary

 * Notified: WP Middle Ages and WP Wales. Creator User:Rhion inactive.

This is primarily an issue of 1c - specifically WP:RS. The article relies heavily on A History of Wales from the Earliest Times to the Edwardian Conquest by John Edward Lloyd, which is a classic, surely, but at a hundred years old must certainly have been surpassed by newer scholarship. Lloyd writes from the nation-state perspective typical of early 20th-century historiography, and even though the article itself is reasonably balanced, it's a bad signal to send that historical research doesn't develop at all over a hundred years. I will put some suggestions on the talk page for newer works that can be used.

Then there is the "Historical assessment" part. This is where Lloyd would be in his place, to show historiographical development. Instead a somewhat lazy solution has been chosen, with two lengthy quotes and no editorial comment. As the quotes stand now they appear as a historiographical disagreement between two schools of thought, rather than the result of historiographical development over time.

Finally there's the "Cultural allusions" which tends towards "In popular culture" (Sharon Kay Penman is like the Family Guy of medieval literature). This section should be limited to culturally significant portrayals of the subject, and not include a bullet-point list of every popular novel where he's mentioned. Apart from this I think the article is reasonably well written, and should be salvageable. Lampman (talk) 11:43, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from User:Ealdgyth
 * I wouldn't consider a reliable source.
 * Some stuff is probably unreferenced. Examples:
 * "By 1175 Gwynedd had been divided between two of Llywelyn's uncles. Dafydd ab Owain held the area east of the River Conwy and Rhodri ab Owain held the west. Dafydd and Rhodri were the sons of Owain by his second marriage to Cristin ferch Goronwy. This marriage was not considered valid by the church as Cristin was Owain's first cousin, a degree of relationship which according to Canon law prohibited marriage. Giraldus Cambrensis refers to Iorwerth Drwyndwn as the only legitimate son of Owain Gwynedd." It has a citation on it, but it's to Gerald of Wales (Giraldus Cambrensis) and I'm betting ALL that information isn't in G of W.
 * "In 1197 Llywelyn captured Dafydd and imprisoned him. A year later Hubert Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury, persuaded Llywelyn to release him, and Dafydd retired to England where he died in May 1203."
 * "A year later Hubert Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury, persuaded Llywelyn to release him, and Dafydd retired to England where he died in May 1203." unsourced
 * "Dafydd succeeded Llywelyn as prince of Gwynedd, but King Henry was not prepared to allow him to inherit his father's position in the remainder of Wales. Dafydd was forced to agree to a treaty greatly restricting his power and was also obliged to hand his brother Gruffydd over to the king, who now had the option of using him against Dafydd. Gruffydd was killed attempting to escape from the Tower of London in 1244. This left the field clear for Dafydd, but Dafydd himself died without issue in 1246 and was eventually succeeded by his nephew, Gruffydd's son, Llywelyn the Last." unsourced
 * The reliance on Lloyd's 1911 work is scary. It's been supllpemented a bit by more recent works, but more should be devoted to more modern works, and less cited to Gerald of Wales and the Brut.
 * I cannot find this source in World Cat "Remfry, P.M., Whittington Castle and the families of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn, Peverel, Maminot, Powys and Fitz Warin (ISBN 1-899376-80-1)"
 * It's probably too new, try Google Book Search. Lampman (talk) 13:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Nothing should be sourced to Weis Ancestral Roots .. it's unreliable.
 * I fixed some quotation issues, but I just don't have the sources to do this article justice. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The main source here should be Roger Turvey's Llywelyn the Great, that I mentioned on the talk page. Turvey's a respected historian, the book is highly relevant and of a very recent date. The problem is that it's hard to come by; even some well equipped academic libraries don't have it. Lampman (talk) 04:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * Suggested FA criteria concerns is citations. Joelito (talk) 03:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delist The edits made by the two reviewers above are largely formatting. The substantive comments are not addressed. DrKiernan (talk) 09:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delist Still some referencing issues, most notably apparent in subsection Children. Cirt (talk) 23:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.