Wikipedia:Featured article review/South Side, Chicago/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by Dana boomer 20:13, 31 December 2012.

Review commentary

 * Notified: User talk:TonyTheTiger, WP:CHICAGO

I am nominating this featured article for review because on Aug 29 I posted on the talk of concerns. No one responded in that thread. One user has made 3 edits improving technical issues. THe article has about 10-12 maintenance tags still today. In the spring when it was TFA, it hit the main page with 12 tags. This is not what an FA should be. User:TonyTheTiger notified. Pumpkin Sky  talk  15:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Since the WP:TFAR, I have been meaning to address a lot of the tags. I have not gotten around to it. Thanks for your concern.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment TTT is make a good effort at fixing the issues even though it's only been a few days. Pumpkin Sky  talk  22:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * Featured article criteria mentioned in the review section include referencing and prose. Dana boomer (talk) 13:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Has someone said something about the prose?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think so but it still has maintenance tags. Pumpkin Sky   talk  16:24, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It has two remaining citation needed tags. Is that all?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:49, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There is also a weasel-word tag (by whom?) in the pop culture section (which is where I took the mention of prose from), and almost a dozen dead-link tags. Dana boomer (talk) 20:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh. The dead link tags. I did not notice those. I was really wondering why this was FARed in the first place. Those deadlinks make a big difference. I have some work to do.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:33, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
 * All the dead links fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:04, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Eliminated POV content alleviating the by whom tag.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:49, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * There's a cite needed tag in the lead. I think that's all that's left. Pumpkin Sky  talk  09:56, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I notified TTT on his talkpage of this a couple days ago. Pumpkin Sky  talk  01:23, 2 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delist. I see some changes a bit, unfortunately, I have to agree with the FA concerns per, with prose and sourcing, including paragraphs in the section "Athletics" and "Demographic history". JJ98 (Talk) 03:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed to Keep JJ98 (Talk) 02:17, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry I did not respond to the last citation needed template. I finally got it. Not sure how to address other complaints.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:02, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Question. It's been a while since I've hung out at FAR, and I'm a little confused.  I don't see any actionable issues stated, other than those that Tony has addressed... are they hiding somewhere? -- Visviva (talk) 05:09, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No. At this point we're mainly just waiting on more reviewers to either say "keep" or identify more actionable issues. FAR is (like most of the other review processes) unfortunately a bit short on reviewers. Dana boomer (talk) 17:25, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I will be looking forward to changing my vote!  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:45, 8 November 2012 (UTC) Good work so far.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  00:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - Tony, I'm still seeing one citation needed tag (in the References in popular culture section). Once that's addressed, I think we should be good to go, unless someone else brings up more comments in the meantime. Dana boomer (talk) 16:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:09, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Delist I've made some changes: . Feel free to revert. I've also added some citation tags. Here are some examples of issues.
 * There are full paragraphs without references.
 * I've added some more 'citation needed' tags.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  23:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we have gone from 10 to 1 unreffed paragraph. I just came back from the South Regional Library. I wish you had tagged these extra things earlier.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:26, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I tend to go into more detail in references later on in the reviews. Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll try to spotcheck the article as soon as I can for you.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  15:02, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I am going to hit the downtown main branch of the library today from 19:00-23:00 UTC. Please have a look before this if possible.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:13, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * according to link checker, refs 4, 5, 11, 12, 34, 86, 122 and 126 appear not to work. Ref 15 is poll of what people think the boundaries are, which needs to be removed or made clear that is what the information is based on. If, for example, people were asked in a survey how many centimeters are in a meter and 60% said 120, that doesn't make it correct. There must be a more reliable source out there.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  15:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of one sentence paragraphs that could do with merging, especially in the Athletics section.
 * I have merged a lot of paragraphs.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "In fact, the parade is said to be the largest Irish neighborhood St. Patrick's celebration in the world outside of Dublin, Ireland". Surely the "in fact" is redundant? This is also a continuation of the previous paragraph, so maybe a merge or a rethink in paragraph structure is needed here.
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:18, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "The parade was founded in 1979". We need more info. Who founded it, why was it founded etc.
 * Why is that content relevant in this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:27, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry I didn't make my point clear. What I meant was the sentence is very short, so needs some more info adding to it.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The important expansion is in the following sentence on the current state of the parade. I don't have much more for that part of the content that rises to a level of being worthy for inclusion in this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "Following the 2009 parade, organizers stated the group was 'not planning to stage a parade in its present form'". Why was this? Was it too big? We need something to explain this.
 * This is not the place for details about the parade. Knowing when it started and was discontinued is about all that is relevant for this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What is stated in the article doesn't say it's been discontinued. It needs to be more clear in any case.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Clarified.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:50, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * This sentence should come earlier: "The South Side Irish Parade occurs on Western Avenue each year on the Sunday before St. Patrick's Day on the southwest side. Another large parade occurs on the South Side every year."
 * Moved.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:37, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentence "Seven other pro teams—three now defunct, two now playing in other media markets, one now playing in a Chicago suburb, and one now playing in another part of Chicago—called the South Side home." uses the word now too frequently, and also is hard to follow. Also is "pro" encyclopedic? I suggest merging this paragraph with the one above.
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "Part of the confusion stems from the city's address numbering system which uses a grid demarcating Madison Street (which runs east-west in the middle of the Loop)" uses the word "which" twice and a comma should be used before the first "which".
 * I think I have fixed it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:21, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentence "The South Side has a population of 752,496, of which over 93% are African-American. Some zip codes in the area exceed 98% black or African-American", which I've reworded says "African-American", then "black or African-American". Should this be the same both times?
 * I am contemplating deleting that whole paragraph. The refs are not so good.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:24, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:53, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're thinking of deleting the whole paragraph then issues with the sentence haven't been resolved yet and there is no need to comment yet.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "The South Loop's booming mid-decade construction suggests that the South Side will be populated with more Caucasians in the coming years". Which mid-decade?
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * African-American is sometimes hyphenated and sometimes not, please check through article.
 * I made 8 switches.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:29, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "In the 20th century, the numbers expanded with the Great Migration as African Americans voted with their feet and left the South's lynchings, disfranchisement, poor job opportunities and limited education." Doesn't make sense.
 * After merging it with the prior paragraph it probably makes more sense.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I will respond to this before the weekend is over. I have been quite hectic with the campaign and am behind on a lot of tasks that I wanted to attend to.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:00, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * More comments
 * The lead has info that is not included in the main body of the article, such as the first sentence and "The South Side covers 60% of the city's land area". Please check for similar issues.
 * I think I have addressed this issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:16, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentence now appears in the main body without a ref. It contains a figure, so it kind of needs one. Also what about 'L' trains?  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The sentence is no longer in the LEAD. The trains are in the main body in the transportation section.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but it doesn't call them 'L' trains. The lead should not mention anything in the main body that isn't in the lead.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:35, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * "Working class" is not hyphenated in the lead, but is in the main body. Please check for similar issues.
 * Correct as is. The noun working class and the adjective working-class are both used correctly in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:32, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, the first usage as a noun is a bit confusing as it is constructed. I am having another look at restructuring that sentence.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:16, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * O.K. made both adjectives.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There are too many references in the lead. It should summarize the material in the main body, and so should already be referenced.
 * There are two acceptable formats for WP:LEADs. Either all facts are cited or all facts are uncited because those facts are cited in the main body. Obviously this is the fully cited format.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:09, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you point me to the place where it says this or quote please. This is the relevant info isn't it? "Because the lead will usually repeat information that is in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article." I don't think much of what is mentioned in the lead is that controversial.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In the "Subdivisions" section "South Side Irish" is linked twice. It is still not clear which parade is being referred to at times, as it begins to talk about the South Side Irish, then the Bud Billiken Parade, and then back to the Soth Side Irish. The paragraph is now a bit cluttered; maybe split the paragraph in two, so one is about the Irish Americans and the other about other ethnic groups.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Be consistent; either R&B or rhythm and blues.
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Why are soul and jazz not linked while other music genres are? Also blues and gospel are linked on their second occurrence and not their first. Please check for similar issues.
 * Done. (linked soul, jazz, gospel and blues).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The "references in popular culture" section is trivial.
 * They are all sourced. I don't think they should be removed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 05:41, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just a random collection of information. There are probably endless numbers of things that can go in here. The article doesn't even mention why these are important or relevant to the article.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * There isn't anything in the "see also" section.
 * Where do you want those templates moved to.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point. I can't see where else these can go.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  01:15, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Random, incomplete spot check by SandyGeorgia;

I saw some iffy sourcing while I was in there ... I'll ping Ealdgyth for a source check. I couldn't get beyond the first paragraph on prose (the entire article should be copyedited by an independent editor)-- samples only:

The South Side is a major part of the city of Chicago, which is located in Cook County, Illinois, United States. Much of it has evolved from the city's incorporation of independent townships, such as Hyde Park Township which voted along with several other townships to be annexed in the June 29, 1889 elections. Regions of the city, referred to as sides, historically have been divided by the Chicago River and its branches.
 * 1) Major?  An overused iff-defined term, no idea what it means here.
 * 2) Evolved ??
 * 3) Do townships vote?
 * 4) If regions were divided "historically", why are they no longer-- did the river move to St. Louis or something?   I have no idea what that sentence is trying to say or intending to mean.

Skip down to the third paragraph for a sample: The South Side boasts a broad array of cultural and social offerings, such as professional sports teams, landmark buildings, nationally renowned museums, elite educational institutions, world class medical institutions and major parts of the city's elaborate parks system. The South Side is serviced by bus and 'L' train via the Chicago Transit Authority and a number of Metra lines.[12] In addition, it has several interstate and national highways to serve vehicular traffic.[13]
 * 1) Here we see that "major" again.  Always an overused word, never clear.
 * 2) Elaborate citation?
 * 3) In addition means also which is just about always redundant, and is here.

Skipping further down the page: The current McCormick Place Convention Center is the largest convention center in the United States, and the third largest in the world.[80] Previously, the South Side hosted conventions at the Chicago Coliseum and the International Amphitheatre.[6] The Ford City Mall and the surrounding shopping district includes several big-box retailers.
 * 1) Current?  Largest needs an as of date, so does third largest.
 * 2) Previously?  Previous to what?  Through what year?
 * 3) The mall has big stores-- why do we care?  Uncited because ... why is it even there?  Of course malls in big cities have big stores.

If the lead has issues, the rest of the article is likely to. Please locate an independent copyeditor. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Request has been posted at WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:01, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been doing a bit of minor copy-editing toward the top of the artice; I'll try to go through the rest in the next couple of days. I took the liberty of removing the "citation needed" tag in the "Athletics" section, since the tag was on the statement that seven teams used to be in the area and the seven are listed in the ensuing paragraphs (I took out an unnecessary paragraph break to try to make that clear). Since I haven't had a chance to get to know the article well, I've only been dealing with obvious things; I certainly haven't tried to address everything Sandy says above. However, my general advice would be to shorten it. There's a tendency to belabor points, and some of the citation problems are about extremely minor observations that could easily just be removed. A good example is the "Boundaries/Subdivisions" section, which goes on forever and never actually says why any of it matters (it hints at racial, class, and gentrification issues but doesn't make them clear). I feel like someone who knows the material better could pick out what really matters in there and cut the whole section down by half. Chick Bowen 17:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Observations by Chick Bowen
 * I share your concern, and agree with your proposal. But, neither do I think we should still be addressing basic prose issues three months in to a FAR.  It's one thing to keep a lengthy FAR open when work is clearly ongoing and many editors are at work, but quite another to hope someone from the GOCE will do a copyedit, when to my knowledge, they don't typically have the resources to copyedit to the level required by FA or to correct the deficiencies here.  Unless something happens soon here, I'll be declaring a Delist-- this FAR has already gone on for three months, the article still has substantial issues, and so far there doesn't seem to be enough of an effort to remedy the situation.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 17:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am surprised at the quick response regarding the copyedit issues. Regarding the fact that the copyedit was not requested for three months, I think it is a bit fair to make the request that I find a copyeditor after three months and then complain that a copyedit has not been addressed for three months. If a willing copyeditor has arrived, why should we delist upon his arrival.  That also makes little sense to me and find it unfair to delist promptly after help arrives. I admit that WP:CHICAGO has left me on an island in terms of addressing this FARC, but now that help has arrived, it should not be a signal to delist.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not in the guild; I just happened by. If you could find somebody else to look it over, I think that would be good. Chick Bowen 20:06, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your efforts. I have a request in at the guild. I don't know how to solicit anyone else. I appreciate whatever help you can provide.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:26, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


 * One difficult problem that affects the entire article is the issue of defining the South Side. The article admits that there are different opinions on the boundaries. In one section, the article even seems to suggest that the Southwest Side is somehow separate from the South Side. ("Adding to the confusion are the neighborhoods which are also classified as being part of the Southwest side such as McKinley Park, Brighton Park, Archer Heights and Garfield Ridge.") With such a shaky foundation, it's hard to say if the later sections in the article are accurate and complete. What, exactly, is the scope of the article? (I don't think this is an insurmountable problem, but it would take some time and effort to figure things out.) Zagal e jo^^^ 03:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I also remember raising the issue of close-paraphrasing at the original FAC discussion. (Specifically, some phrases were very close to the Encyclopedia of Chicago entry.) That's something important to keep in mind. Zagal e jo^^^ 03:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As of this writing, I haven't found any additional issues of close-paraphrasing, but I won't make a guarantee of anything. (In the process, I did notice that this - a Barnes and Noble page for a Books LLC title - was recently added as a reference. That book is probably just a compilation of Wikipedia articles (though I know many replacement references are available). Zagal e jo^^^ 04:22, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct; Books LLC is a Wikipedia mirror-- not a reliable source. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Comments by MarchOrDie I had a quick look and confirm that the writing is pretty ropey. It really needs a top-to-bottom copyedit. I share the concern about the sourcing and I dislike the slightly random "In popular culture section". If this has really been sitting for such a long time without being improved, maybe it does need to be delisted. It certainly doesn't meet the criteria at present. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2012 (UTC)


 * MarchOrDie's one edit has been the only edit in the week since I last posted. We keep FARCs open when work is progressing; work is not progressing.  I will revisit in a few more days, and will likely enter a Delist if significant work isn't underway by then.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 20:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I saw that the source issue mentioned above was sports-related, so I found a replacement that should be suitable. The wording of the source was originally a little close to the article, but given that the source wasn't in the article before, it's probably a coincidence. I noticed a few bugs in the reference formatting, but I haven't read enough of the article to offer an informed opinion on it. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delist, a month since notice of copyedit needs, insufficient progress, and "nowadays" ? WP:MOSDATE.  It is one thing to leave an article for months at FAR when there is diligent work and consistent progress shown; neither is the case here.  FAR was never intended to be an indefinite means of making sure a star isn't removed.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.