Wikipedia:Featured article review/Third Battle of Kharkov/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by Dana boomer 00:36, 7 March 2011.

Review commentary

 * Notified: Catalan, Buckshot06, Roger Davies Military History WikiProject

I am nominating this featured article for review because this article needs a lot of work to remain a FA. Per WP:FACR a FA must be:

1.
 * (b) comprehensive::
 * Major work needed. For an article that is a direct link on the Eastern Front template, it does not much describe what exactly happened between Stalingrad and Kharkov. Neither does it include any detail on the wider Soviet Kharkov Offensive, which was not limited to the area surrounding Kharkov, but included all the fighting from January 13, 1943. It does show how this was a German strategic victory (which it was, notably the last strategic victory on the Eastern Front).
 * In addition there is no good description of the area, and directions of attacks are not explaining a lot. A map or two would help.
 * (c) well-researched: Major work needed, see WP:MILMOS. References to Manstein's nad Mellentin's memoirs are not the sources that should be used in a FA. Clark, Cooper and Sykes are very outdated books and also inappropriate. Glantz is  a good, but he has written books on the subject more recently (as recently as 2009), so using 15-19 year old books is not the best either.
 * (d) neutral: The use of poor sources makes the article include nonsense about destroying 52 Soviet divisions, back hand maneuvers and the like, and overstating the importance and genius of Manstein.

3. Media. No Problems with licensing, but the lack of any map or maps of the battle is making it difficult to follow.

Issues were raised on January 1, on both the article and the Military History talk pages. The editors who replied seem to agree that there are problems.D2306 (talk) 13:57, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Comments: just a couple of minor quibbles from me (should be easily fixed), as I'm not knowledgeable on the sources or subject:
 * there is a mixture of US and British English spelling, e.g. "armor" and "armored" but also "armoured";
 * Fixed
 * the emdashes are incorrectly spaced per WP:DASH;
 * Note # 13, to which source in the references does "Glantz (15)" relate?;
 * Fixed. Reworded and replaced reference.
 * Note # 1 "Glantz (1995)" - shouldn't this be "Glantz & House (1995)"?;
 * Note # 14 "Glantz (1999)" - shouldn't this be "Glantz & House (1999)";
 * Heiber and Glantz (2003) is listed in the References, but doesn't appear to be directly cited. AustralianRupert (talk) 04:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Moved to "Further Reading"D2306 (talk) 14:46, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

4. errors:
 * "500,000 Red Army soldiers took part in what was known as the Voronezh–Kharkov Offensive" out of a total of "6,100,000 Soviet soldiers were committed to the area"... area is wrong: probably the entire Eastern Front is meant to be this "area".
 * "In comparison, the Germans could account for 2,200,000 personnel on the Eastern Front, with another 100,000 deployed in Norway." What has Norway to do with this? That is thousands of kilometers away from Kharkov and 2,2 million is way to low a figure, because after adding 800.000 men until
 * "May 1943, when the German armed forces were at their highest strength since the beginning of the war, with 9.5 million personnel", but if the article is correct, then the German Army only deployed less than 25% of this 9 million men in the east... in truth out of around 9 million soldiers the Wehrmacht deployed around 5-6 million in the East!

in short: all the numbers in this sentence seem arbitrary and wrong. Can someone check them and correct them? If not I will remove the sentence in question. I also removed already the sentence: "which were earmarked for the offensive operations towards the Don River" because the Don at this time was already hundreds of kilometers to the back of the Soviet front!! noclador (talk) 23:25, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

FARC commentary

 * Featured article criteria of concern brought up in the review section include referencing, comprehensiveness and neutrality. Dana boomer (talk) 22:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Re-notified Military History WikiProject.D2306 (talk) 09:46, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Comment - This has been at FARC for over two weeks. Could we get some comments on whether this should be kept or delisted? Dana boomer (talk) 14:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment - The article seems to only have the errors noted above as remaining issues to be fixed. Someone(s) with sources for that data needs to check and make correction. I believe some more time, like 3-4 weeks should be allowed for that to happen. -Fnlayson (talk) 18:54, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The sourcing comments made by the original FAR nominator do not appear to have been addressed. The disputed sources are still in the article and no comments regarding them have been made above. Do you plan to complete the work needed on the article? If not, these major sourcing issues have been pointed out for over two months, and so I'm not sure how allowing another month is going to induce someone to come forward and spend the time that it will take to bring this article back to FA quality. Dana boomer (talk) 19:08, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it looked like this was first posted today on WT:MILHIST, but after more checking it was first posted there on Jan. 2. That should be enough time after notice was given.  I'm done here. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This article should be delisted. It badly needs more maps to follow the action and consults very few recent sources. The histories of the 1st-3rd SS-Panzergrenadier Divisions (not yet formally redesignated as SS-Panzer Divisions) have been translated and are available. I don't think that any Tigers were used in this battle, but Tigers in Combat II was not consulted to confirm or deny this. Clark simply isn't reliable for anything other than atmosphere by now. Nor has Jentz's Panzer Truppen been consulted to check starting German tank strengths. And Nipe's Last Victory in Russia is essential for tracking the tactical engagements from the German POV. And where's the info from Glantz's 2009 book? In short it needs a major overhaul to even meet GA standards; I'd call it a B-class article by somebody without a detailed knowledge of the Eastern Front and its participants.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree; I think the discussion has highlighted some major issues that haven't been resolved. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:32, 1 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Delist: I don't know this subject very well, but based on the comments by other editors above, I feel that it should probably be delisted. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.