Wikipedia:Featured article review/Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 2:03, 13 February 2021 (UTC).

Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory

 * Notified: Martyman, Australia noticeboard, 2020-12-28

This is a 2005 promotion whose main editor hasn't edited in almost a decade. I noticed the talk page in early December, and did what they could, making a lot of improvements, but there are some issues that Graham could not fix. There is some uncited text, some citation cleanup needed, some page ranges that need to be nailed down to more manageable size, and with some very dated sources, it is not clear that the article is updated. Hopefully someone will pick this up, as this should be an easy FAR save if one knows the territory. I am not sure if allhomes.com is a reliable source. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  02:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Updated the map sources to a 2017 hardcopy street directory (luckily the streets and buildings haven't been moved). Added the zoned high schools for the suburb. Allhomes is an online real estate database/catalogue/news site that is owned by Domain Group (a family of real estate newspapers/databases) that was owned by Fairfax Media (owner of the Sydney Morning Herald, The [Melbourne Age, and The Canberra Times) which has now been taken over by Channel 9. You can find Allhomes/Domain analysis pieces on property that are carried directly on the Canberra Times/SMH/Age website, so they are like a single-topic newspaper with an editorial board etc, similar to sports websites that have commentary/reports + statistics databases. Bumbubookworm (talk) 06:00, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * That resolves allhomes, thanks for improvements, I will look in later (iPad typing). Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:18, 30 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I can't sort what Gugler 2008 is supposed to be, and whether Gugler 1997 is supposed to be used. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:44, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yarralumla Neighbourhood Plan, is cited several times, with no information about what it is, full source info missing. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:52, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we have copyvio from this source. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * What is ACT ? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ah ha ... Australian CapitalTerritory, d’oh. The acronym needs to be defined somewhere. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  04:16, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have spelt out the ACT, although In Australia is almost never called by the whole name. Mind you the distinction between Canberra and the ACT is also obscure, more so that between Washington and DC, because it covers the great majority of the metropolitan population (but it also includes a great deal of absolute and beautiful wilderness).--Grahame (talk) 05:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem here is the need to define the acronym before its first occurrence (and to let the rest of us dummies know what it is :) I have done this to get the acronym moved up, and to explain that Canberra is in the ACT earlier on.  Pls check, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:31, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Copyedit needed if we can sort the rest. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:08, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I have addressed most of the copyedit needs, but there are outstanding questions below. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

are any of you Aussies able to address any of the above? There is a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, and I don't speak Aussie English, and don't know what some of the terms are. Or can you recommend an Australian editor for this task? I am particularly concerned if there is copyvio; if not, this bronze star should be salvageable. Alternately, if it is not salvageable, it would be helpful for you all to say so. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:17, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The Australian Heritage Database listing of the forestry school has a creative commons notification at its bottom. Gugler 2008 should have read Gugler 1997 and I have now fixed.--Grahame (talk) 04:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thx, will fix that with incite attribution later, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  04:18, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Referring to your comment on the talk page, is there an issue with UBD/street directories in general or is it because the street directory is old [I have validated with my 2017 paper version that everything is still there] Bumbubookworm (talk) 04:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Bumbubookworm, I cannot decipher to whom or about what talk page comment you are referring here. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  16:32, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I was referring to Grahamec saying 'I must say I'm not happy with all the geographical sourcing to UBD Canberra, which could easily be changed to OpenStreetMap, but that is probably OR' Bumbubookworm (talk) 19:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

, the Australian Heritage Database used in this article, has a CC BY 3.0 AU note at the bottom. Can I implement the trick you did at the bottom of this diff for attributing it within the citation? Also, a small amount of text is verbatim, with some minor alterations: I am unclear what I need to do with the actual text. From this version: Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Australian Heritage Database:

Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia The Commonwealth and the states agreed in 1920 that a single forestry school was needed to supply an urgent need for well-trained foresters.
 * Source The first Interstate Forestry Conference, held in November 1911 and attended by heads of State forestry services of NSW, Victoria, South Australia and Queensland and the government botanist of Tasmania, resolved that a single forestry school be established to fulfil the urgent need for well-trained foresters. However, there was no further action until in 1920 a Premier's Conference agreed to establish the school in NSW. (small parts are verbatim, do they need to be quoted, and it appears that our text glosses over the 1911 date)
 * I have worked on the chronology, which did gloss over the 1911 agreement. Incidently, well-trained foresters were required to spread Monterey pines, which are facing extinction in Monterey, but grow like a weed in Australia, especially around Canberra, although they are fire-prone.--Grahame (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia Land was set aside in 1926 for the Commonwealth Forestry School at Westridge near the brickworks and Westbourne Woods.
 * Source I am not finding support for this exact wording in the source. No verbatim text, but we may need to work on the text to better reflect the source.
 * "Setting aside land" is probably the wrong term. All land in Canberra remained in government ownership until the 1980s. Strictly speaking it still is, but the situation is now more complex. What was meant was the government had assigned a site, but the source doesn't say when this happened, although it must have been in 1925 or 1926.--Grahame (talk) 13:38, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Better, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia The now heritage-listed Forestry School and the associated principal's residence Westridge House are located on Banks Street, Yarralumla.
 * Source This exact text is not supported by the source. Again, no verbatim text, and we may need to rework the text to avoid some of what now looks like original research, but could probably be sourced elsewhere.
 * We have 2 sources headed "Westridge House & Grounds, Banks St, Yarralumla, ACT, Australia" and "Australian Forestry School (former), Banks St, Yarralumla, ACT, Australia". I'm not sure what the issue is.--Grahame (talk) 08:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The references may not have been precise enough, so I have added both references at that point.--Grahame (talk) 08:14, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Good, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:39, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia The school was initially established in March 1926 at the University of Adelaide, which had Australia's only forestry course at the time.
 * Source Adequately paraphrased, but I cannot see that the source supports Adelaide having the only course at the time.
 * I can't find a reference to Adelaide having the only forestry course at the time, so I have deleted it (and added a reference to Charles Lane Poole, although there seems to be a disagreement over a hyphen).--Grahame (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Good enough, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:40, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia Its permanent building in Yarralumla was designed by Federal Capital Commission architects J.H. Kirkpatrick, and H.M. Rolland.
 * Source Adequately paraphrased, reflects source.
 * No fix needed, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia It is built in the Inter-War Stripped Classical style as a single storey rendered brick building with a parapet and a hipped tiled roof.
 * Source The Australian Forestry School is a fine example of the Inter-War Stripped Classical style of architecture, being symmetrically composed, divided into vertical bays, with a central entrance and roundels suggestive of classical entablature. Other features are stepped parapets, round arched openings at the entrance and projecting bay ends, and a hipped tiled roof. (seems OK?)
 * No problem here, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:41, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia Various Australian woods, including Queensland maple and walnut (Cryptocarya palmerstonii), red cedar, red mahogany, hoop pine and mountain ash, were used throughout the building.
 * Source Australian timbers from various States, including Queensland Maple and Walnut, Red Cedar, Red Mahogany, Hoop Pine and Mountain Ash, are used throughout the building in floors, doors, wall panelling, ceilings and trimmings. (do we need to quote this? ... what about insertion of Cryptocarya palmerstonii?  should that be in italics, and is it needed?
 * Cryptocarya palmerstonii was my surmise after looking into online sources, but it would be useful to have an expert opinion in the absence of an article on Queensland walnut or Cryptocarya palmerstonii. Of course the reference to Cryptocarya palmerstonii (and it is not the only possible interpretation of Queensland walnut, which is apparently not a well-known tree) could be omitted altogether.--Grahame (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * That is the sort of thing that Casliber would know, so I hope he will look in. Bst, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:03, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia It opened in April 1927 prior to its completion in June 1927 and its first students started in 1928.
 * Source Construction of the school commenced in July 1926 and it was officially opened on 11 April 1927, with 16 students and three permanent lecturing staff, as well as Lane Poole. ... Although the School had opened in April 1927, the building was not completed until June that year and the formal opening was not until 24 November 1927. (Adquately paraphrased, but I am unable to find support for first students starting in 1928.)
 * Fair point, I don't what gave me the impression that students started in 1928. I have now fixed.--Grahame (talk) 10:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:42, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia Due to financial stringency during the Great Depression and other priorities during the Second World War, it had few students in its first years.
 * Source Supported by source and paraphrased.
 * No fix needed, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikipedia The Forestry School was absorbed by the Australian National University in 1965 and forestry courses are now carried out at its main campus in Acton.
 * Jacobs was followed by K.P. McGrath as acting Principal until responsibility for forestry education was transferred to the Australian National University early in 1965 (Boden, 1993). There are several reasons for the move, one of which was the need to provide more opportunities for postgraduate training such as the MSc and PhD available at the University. (where do we source "now carried out at its main campus in Acton?)
 * I have added a source for current location.--Grahame (talk) 10:57, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:43, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * It's okay to copy the text without paraphrasing as long as it's properly attributed and compatibly licensed. The inline attribution I showed you is a good way to do it. I hope the numbered points 1 through 10 are not for my attention?— Diannaa (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, ; no need to look at points 1 through 10, which are content matters ... I just needed to know from you if I could implement that inline attribution within the citation as you taught me. Thanks! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:21, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Done,  (we still need to sort some of the content matter, though).  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:27, 31 January 2021 (UTC)


 * This sentence is derogatory: "Yarralumla Primary School, a public school, opened in 1957. Half of the original primary school is now used as a behavioural centre catering to problem students." And not supported by the source.   are they referring only to the autism center, or can you patch up the "problem students" wording somehow?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  17:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have removed the unsourced and probably overstated or untrue comment.--Grahame (talk) 12:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Ambiguous: It remained standing as of 2008.  Is this statement supposed to refer to the Woolshed, or the Governor's House?  If Woolshed, source does not say that.  If Governor's House, there must be a newer source.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:18, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * They both still stand, although Government House is highly modified. Still they both have their own article, so it is not necessary to state that they are still standing, so I have deleted the comment.--Grahame (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * UNDUE? The dam is designed to handle a once in 5,000-year flood event. ... In other words, it doesn't really handle floods at all.  Since the dam has its own article, does this text need to be in this article?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  20:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Being able to handle a once in 5,000-year flood means it can handle all floods except one that it is likely to occur only once in 5000 years. Major roads are often designed to handle 1 in 100 year floods, although in flood-prone areas, 1 in 20 years is considered good and 1 in 1 year is often acceptable. Mind you, it is not particularly relevant here and more relevant to the article on the dam and so I have deleted it. A few years, I was pushed back by police when I and many others were trying to photograph it in flood because they thought it was going to collapse.--Grahame (talk) 12:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I sure had that one backwards! At any rate, not needed in this article, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Although Yarralumla is one of the largest suburbs in Canberra by area,[3] ... is cited to a range of 100 pages ! Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:58, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a very doubtful way of sourcing. You can find the areas of the suburbs by going to https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/people/population/regional-population/2018-19#australian-capital-territory and dowloading an XL file "Population estimates by Statistical Area Level 2, 2018 to 2019", but it is easier to avoid making an area comparison.--Grahame (talk) 11:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Resolved, Sandy Georgia (Talk)  15:45, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Close without FARC, it would be nice if Cas or someone could resolve the walnut query, but this is good enough to Keep. The only thing I see that still needs adjustment is one statement in the lead that is out of sync with the body ... and as of 2011 was home to approximately 3,000 people ... but the body cites a 2016 source, so the "as of" date is off. , fine effort; you own this one now :)  Bst, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:45, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've handled the as of date in the lead. Hog Farm Talk 16:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Close without FARC - I see a single sentence lacking a citation in the Suburb amenities section, but that can easily be resolved outside of FAR. Hog Farm Talk 16:41, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm also concerned about some of the additions. Hog Farm Talk 17:21, 4 February 2021 (UTC)


 * New text added:
 * The blocks enclosed by Banks, Schlicht, Mueller and Weston Streets in the immediate vicinity of the shops are zoned RZ2, allowing for dual occupancies and duplexes to be built, while the remainder of the suburb's residential area is zoned RZ1, allowing for detached houses. The source for this is a map.  Where are the zoning definitions, and this is original research from a primary source. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  06:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with writing geography articles, so others may have more experienced viewpoints, but is the difference between duplexes and attached homes in zoning seems a little WP:UNDUE to me. Industrial vs residential zoning maybe, but would removal of the content be justifiable? Hog Farm Talk 06:17, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You can find the zoning on the Territory Plan, although I don't think it is possible to link to a particular part of the map. In principle RZ1 only allows single houses to be built on a block and RZ2 allows small multiple units. Hackles have been raised in Yarralumla by many development trends over the years, including the redevelopment of housing blocks, proposals for the redevelopment of the brickworks (which has been going on for 30 years and is still unresolved), whether Stirling Park really is a park and whether embassies should be built on a nearby "horse park" (where I picked mushrooms when I was 5). I suspect that the easiest thing to do would be to delete the sentence.--Grahame (talk) 07:04, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You can make the Allhomes map work by clicking on "Territory Planning Zones.--Grahame (talk) 07:20, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It is all undue if not mentioned by a source; we can’t analyze data from a primary source map ... we can describe locations from a map. If hackles have been raised, there should be something in the local press. In fact, if hackles have been raised in a long-term controversy, not covering that from local press would fail comprehensive. Where are the zoning definitions? Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  13:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

This article is moving backwards with new text additions. It has gotten into synth, OR, and UNDUE with addition of new text that analyzes data from primary sources and combines sources to reach conclusions, while it also apparently neglects local coverage of controversial issues. I have struck my "close without FARC". Sandy Georgia (Talk)  14:50, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

is this article stable now? The problematic original research has been removed, and I can find no other reliably-sourced mentions of zoning issues. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  17:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
 * It is stable as far as I am concerned.--Grahame (talk) 02:35, 10 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Close without FARC, article appears now to have stabilized. Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  01:40, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Nikkimaria (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I've just read through this article as a Canberran, and think that the FA criteria are sufficently met at present. Nick-D (talk) 10:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.