Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Amy Grant discography/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 7 June 2021 (UTC).

Amy Grant discography

 * Nominator(s): Toa Nidhiki05 13:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I've been meaning to nominate this for a while, but I'm quite proud of this article. For those unfamiliar with the artist, Amy Grant is the best-selling Christian artist of all time and was, for a time, also one of the most popular mainstream singers of the early 90s. She was one of the pioneering artists in contemporary Christian music and the genre's first breakout artist. Her ability to succeed in both mainstream and Christian music has, to this day, not been repeated. I think this is a really quality list. Toa Nidhiki05 13:46, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comments
 * Photo caption is not a complete sentence, so should not have a full stop
 * Done. Toa Nidhiki05 01:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd personally suggest putting the holiday and live albums before the compilations so that all albums of new material are together (unless there is a MOS that says otherwise)
 * I am not aware a MOS on this. The reason it's grouped the way it is is that, after Studio Albums, it's all alphabetical. Open to changing it. Toa Nidhiki05</i> 02:10, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I guess it's not a big deal, so don't worry about it -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * For the Videos section, would "Video albums" be a better heading? When I saw the heading, I thought it was going to list music videos, but it doesn't
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 01:47, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In the "as featured artist" table, why is the album column so massively wide?
 * No clue but I fixed it. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 01:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In ref 18, "cassettes" is spelt incorrectly
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 01:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Think that's all I got - great work! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thoughts -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 18:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Amazon really isn't a RS
 * I cited to them to avoid citing to the item itself, but removed. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The linear notes tend to not have the exact release date.
 * Exact release date is only for retroactive charting (ie. a song charts years or decades after it was released). I can clarify that in the notes if need be. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 14:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Even if the same single peaked at the same position, they should be in their own cell
 * The cells are merged because the charts were merged for that period of time. Since the charts were one and the same, so is the table section. After the charts were separated, the chart also separates. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 19:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The general refs should probably be moved to a bibliography
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If use use more than one page it should be "pp"
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * https://worldradiohistory.com/ is a COPYVIO
 * I've never seen that complaint in literal years of using it as a source. There are similar archives of Billboard in Google Books, for example. I can remove the exact links if need be. Is there an exact policy on this? <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 19:07, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to believe that the scans were used with permission of the copyright holder. It isn't a case of fair use since the text of back issues of Billboard is currently being sold by the company (factor 4). Linking to know copyright violations is prohibited by policy -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 22:38, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Generally speaking, preservation for nonprofit educational purposes (as the site does) is considered fair use, at least as far as I understand it. This is noted in WP:COPYVIOEL: "it uses the work in a way compliant with fair use". <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Going through the factors
 * Factor 1: Against. Non-commercial use, but the scholarship and research claims are sketchy. Access it not restricted to only researchers and there no indication of ongoing scholarship.
 * Factor 2: Tends to not matter, but against. I don't see this as being the Zapruder film. These are not facts that were copied, they are full issues of an in print magazine.
 * Factor 3: Against. All of each issues is copied at high quality
 * Factor 4: Against. Destroys the entire market for licensing articles and selling back issues
 * This fails spectacularly in my view. You are going to need to show that a copyright scholar thinks that putting full scans of a still in publication magazine that is currently selling access to its previously released content to push past my oppose here. -- Guerillero  Parlez Moi 03:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a fancy way of ignoring the very direct "taking a newspaper which was originally created for immediate public consumption at a profit and transforming it into a digital historical artifact at no cost to the researcher usually falls under fair use" line. Again, I'm open to removing the direct link (which directly harms the ability of readers to read the cited source), but I have never seen this criticism before so I find it a bit odd. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 03:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Despite not getting a response, I have removed them. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:21, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * All issues should be addressed now. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 22:22, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * - all issues you've mentioned have been addressed. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 17:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support -- Guerillero Parlez Moi 00:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No copyright concerns for File:Amy Grant October 2008.jpg
 * "The discography of Amy Grant, an American singer, consists of" is overly wordy and doesn't read very well. I recommend something more concise like "The American singer Amy Grant has released".
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Holiday albums are totally studio albums (or sometimes EP when only consisting of a few tracks)! It's unfair and misleading to exclude them from overall album counts based on genre (which is what certain fans and journalists seem to do).
 * If it's a common practice among journalists and not regarded by artists to be studio albums, what's the issue? But more generally, this is done to allow the inclusion of the US Holiday Albums chart, which is fairly relevant in terms of how the album did. The separation also avoids cluttering the main albums category with a chart only a handful of albums use. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:36, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue is how people sometimes (but not always) give works a middle finger by downplaying their chronology count in articles based on lyrics and/or genre. It might also sometimes be done based on personal taste (which is an even less reasonable basis). Thankfully not all sources do such a thing with holiday releases (e.g. Mariah Carey and Gwen Stefani both have Christmas records—respectively Merry Christmas and You Make It Feel Like Christmas—that are rightfully counted as their fourth albums). It's definitely not something I exclusively have seen with Grant here. As for the holiday chart listings, I don't think it would be too bad to have that component chart with the others, even when US Top Christian Albums have already been implemented in each set of tables. Your choice on whether to maintain this holiday chart. Just for the record, it wouldn't exceed the recommendation of 10 columns maximum (I currently see nine for the general albums table). I noticed that only one of the albums (Heart in Motion) entered the primary charts for Norway, Sweden, and the UK, which doesn't seem to have prevented their inclusion, so I don't think it would particularly stick out like a sore thumb to implement holiday there. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 21:51, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think it degrades it to have a separate column, especially when a chunk of the lede is devoted to it. Otherwise it makes more sense, imo, to mention her Christmas albums chronologically there? <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 02:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I did notice they're highlighted in the lead, and that is welcome. It's just that having a separated "Holiday albums" table makes it sound like they're not studio works. However, that joint one with Art Garfunkel (The Animals' Christmas) could perhaps go into a collaborative albums heading, and maybe 20th Century Masters – The Christmas Collection: The Best of Amy Grant can be classified as a re-issue/rerelease. My bigger concern is beating around the bush with solo releases (e.g. A Christmas Album is not only her first holiday release but also her fifth overall solo album). <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 04:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I get that, but I also don't think we can merge the two areas and emphasize them separately in the lede if that makes sense? Basically it's part of the framing - are these just normal, ordinary albums that follow an unbroken chain of her studio releases, or are they a separate but equally noteworthy (in fact, relatively far more notable) type of album? Is there a way we can emphasize that they are studio albums without merging the columns - maybe say "21 studio albums (including 6 Christmas albums)", and then emphasize the location of the releases chronologically in the last paragraph? Open to ideas here because I absolutely get what you're saying, we just need to figure out what to emphasize. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 17:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. You could additionally rename the tables to something like "Non-holiday studio albums" and "Holiday studio albums". <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 19:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Done - Added one for the Christmas studio albums. Lede is already changed - let me know what you think. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 13:28, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "in its first year of release - an impressive total"..... change the hyphen into a comma or dash, and while I get what you're trying to say about the sales, the use of "impressive" comes off as congratulating the amount reached. You could simply say "high total" instead.
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Link Billboard 200, and upon first mention of each chart in the lead, I'd specify the nation each are from. Even though I personally know which ones mentioned are from the US, we shouldn't just assume all readers are familiar with country they represent.
 * Link added; general rule of thumb on these articles seems to be not to add US on these sorts of discographies because Billboard is well-known as the US chart publisher so it's kind of redundant to to do that. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 13:38, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Critical reception for Lead Me On is better for the album's own page.
 * It might be, but I think the context here is fairly important. Not many albums are outright considered the greatest in their genre, which contrasts with the relatively poor sales. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The use of "hit" from "international hit" is subpar tone for (what's supposed to be) a professional encyclopedia
 * Point I was trying to get across here was it was her first big international single. I can reword. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It looks like the lead is mostly US-centric (and I'm guessing part of this comes from how nothing before Unguarded entered any non-American charts). Try to include some other places her albums charted in, along with more peaks for songs (like how "Lucky One" and "House of Love" reached the top 10 in Canada)
 * I've added additional album certifications as well as singles for Australia, the UK, and the rest of Europe. Also charts for Christmas albums in Canada. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 00:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you sure it's appropriate to merge cells for charts that share a common peak? I don't recall that being a common practice for discography tables.
 * It's not a common peak; the charts in question were merged for that period of time, so the results are merged to reflect that. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "1970s-80s" → "1970s–1980s" per WP:DASH and MOS:DATE. On a similar note, change the hyphen from "2000s-present" into a dash.
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:36, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * "Bibliography" is discouraged as a vague section title that could also potentially refer to works written by a subject
 * Changed to "general references". <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:36, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Captalize the M for AllMusic
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 23:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

That's all from me. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 18:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I made one minor fix here, and now can gladly support the nomination! Image review passes as well. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC)


 * sorry for the delay - I have a few responses here. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 01:56, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * any updates on this? would love to know if I need to fix anything else. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 18:15, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Gonna ask one more time - any updates, . All issues have been addressed and we have three other supports. This nom has been up nearly two months so it will probably be closed soon. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 19:07, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Support I'm satisfied my issues have been resolved. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!&#33;!&#33;) 19:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Comments from Aoba47

 * Would it be beneficial to link single in the lead's first sentence, especially since all of the different albums also have links?
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * In the the lead's first paragraph, would it be beneficial to link "mainstream" to the mainstream media article? It is probably already clear without the link, but it may be helpful for readers who may be unfamiliar with the concept.
 * Done. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a clarification question about this part, shipped with a gold certification, a first for a Christian album. A previous sentence said that Age to Age was the first Christian album recorded by a solo artist to receive gold and platinum certifications, but the above part is about Lead Me On being the first Christian album with a gold certification. I am guessing the difference is with the word choice "shipped", but could you explain this for me? I am sure it is already quite clear, but I was a little uncertain about this.
 * Certainly! "Shipping" with a certification just means that, at the time of release, enough albums were sent to retailers to immediately earn a certification on day one. Keep in mind that, for physical releases, the RIAA goes off of albums shipped to retailers. So what this means is that Lead Me On was the first Christian album that, upon its release, shipped enough copies to retailers to be certified gold immediately. <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying this for me. That makes sense to me, and it is clear in the prose. I just wanted to double-check this point. Aoba47 (talk) 21:21, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

You have done an excellent job with this list. I am the most impressed by the lead as you were able to encapsulate Grant's long and successful career into a very good overview. I only have three comments (and two of which are super nitpick-y and the other is more of a clarification question). That should not be surprising since this FLC has already been reviewed by very experienced editors. Once everything is addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate any help with my current FAC. Have a great week! Aoba47 (talk) 16:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * All these concerns should be addressed, . <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Toa</i> <i style="color: green; font-family: Mistral;">Nidhiki05</i> 20:56, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing everything. I support the article for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 21:21, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Giants2008 ( Talk ) 22:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.