Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/BBC Overseas Sports Personality of the Year


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 05:54, 28 February 2009.

BBC Overseas Sports Personality of the Year

 * Nominator(s): Rambo's Revenge (talk) 

I have worked on this for the last month, It is my 5th award in a SPOTY topic. WikiCup entry. I must also thank User:Chrishomingtang and User:Chamal N got worked on this page before me (from to ), which greatly reduced the work I had to do. All comments welcome. Thanks, Rambo's Revenge (talk)  23:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Comment I think you should add a note about joint winners.— Chris!  c t 23:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't quite understand what you mean. There already is a note, and joint winners are mentioned in the prose. Rambo's Revenge (talk)  23:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the main list should have a note even though it is mentioned in the prose. Look at NHL Foundation Player Award as an example.— Chris!  c t 00:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah I see what you mean. Done. I should probably explain why I used two notes when it may have seemed one would suffice. The BBC only recognises three sets of joint winners, and recognises Protopopov and Belousova as a couple/pair that won the award. Rambo's Revenge (talk)</b>  00:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Support — Chris!  c t 19:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from 
 * Lead


 * The award is presented to a non-British sportsperson considered to have made the most substantial contribution to sport in that year. | (1)Unlink British. (2)In this context, I would add 'a' before sport -Done
 * The winning sportsperson is the one with the largest points total. | (Opt.) Possibly add 'amount of' before points.
 * -Reworded to "the largest amount of points in total"
 * Australian golfer Greg Norman has won the award twice, while American boxer Muhammad Ali and Swiss tennis player Roger Federer have each won the award three times. | IMO, this is awkwardly worded having stated first that someone won it twice and then two others have won it 3 times. Maybe reword it or remove it as I don't see what it adds to the prose.
 * Swapped order, keeping as it compliments the number of winners against the number of rows in the table.
 * The husband and wife skating duo of Oleg Protopopov and Ludmila Belousova are the only pair to to have won the award, doing so in 1968. | Since the award was shared on previous occasions, how about stating that they are the first 'married couple'?
 * Discussion The situation is more complicated than it seems (see response to Chris above), they were the only pair to win.
 * Belousova was the first woman to become Overseas Personality_mdash;she is also the oldest, aged 33-years-old. |Typo on the mdash formatting. -Done
 * The youngest ever recipient is Nadia Comăneci, who won in 1976 aged 16-years-old. | The first part is weirdly worded, how about, 'The youngest recipient of the award is..' -Done
 * Boris Becker, who was 18-years-old when he won in 1985, is he youngest male to have won. | Typo on the. -Done
 * Image caption


 * Muhammad Ali (top) and Roger Federer (bottom) have both received the award three times | Needs a full stop -Done
 * Oleg Protopopov and Ludmila Belousova, joint recipients of the award in 1968, were also husband and wife | Needs a full stop -Done
 * References

Thanks for the comments, <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  00:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ref # 4 | If there is no article for the publisher, its best to remove the link as a red one is really not appealing.-- <  TRU CO  >   5 0 3 00:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not done, I see red links as something useful. This is clearly a reliable source and probably merits its own article. Eventually if enough articles ref the redlink, it will rise up the most red linked "whatlinkshere" list and someone will be encouraged to create it. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  00:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then if you're gonna keep it, link all the publishers and works that don't have articles. It doesn't make sense to have one red link against all other non-links. TRU  CO   02:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done (apart from "Telegraph Media Group" as Telegraph Media Group redirects to "The Daily Telegraph" (the work). <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  10:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Support -- Problems resolved to meet WP:WIAFL.-- TRU  CO   14:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment -- this list would be a lot more interesting if it gave some idea of what they did that year to earn the award . For example, the first guy won an Olympic Gold Medal, the second set 3 new world records etc. Rules99 (talk) 12:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Whilst I would like to, it could be construed as WP:OR. The BBC does not specifically mention why it gave all the awards, so whilst the winners achievements in that year maybe mentioned alongside the fact they won the award, it is not explicitly mentioned if any specific contribution(s) caused them to win. For example, an athlete may have a very successful season and break a national record say. Who is to say that whether the good season or the NR was the contributing factor to winning the award. If it is not explicitly mentioned then it is OR. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  13:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Then couldn't you just provide it as background information not necessarily implying a causal link? Rules99 (talk) 13:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been advised against adding unnecessary background information (e.g. the age they received the award if not directly relevent ) All the winners have there own articles if people are really interested in their careers. After all isn't that what wikilinks are for...? <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  14:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we should be assuming that readers want to know what they did that particular year. Rules99 (talk) 14:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The thing is listing this information IMO does imply a link. Take Roger Federer. If we list that he won his fifth consecutive Wimbledon title that implies a link, however he actually did a hell of a lot of impressive stuff in 2007 so how can you choose what to include whilst remaining neutral. It seems an unnecessary and contentious addition considering everything would be in their individual articles. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  16:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Having everything in separate articles means the list is just navigational and not informative (and also deadly boring). Incidentally we can cite someone linking success at Wimbledon with the award: "after equalling Bjorn Borg's record by securing a fifth successive Wimbledon singles title. Federer won three of this year's Grand Slams... " . If these really are contentious you could demand citations although I don't regard them as necessary. Rules99 (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad choice due to it being recent. One wouldn't be able to this for the older winners (i.e. pre-1990). I notice that Rules99 has been blocked indefinitely so I can't continue this discussion in a constructive way. If anyone else wishes to discuss this please let me know. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  09:31, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment -- I'd like to be able to sort by nationality. Rules99 (talk) 12:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This can be done, and I have done it in the past, but I would require that there is consensus for it. The first SPOTY list I submitted started it's FLC with the nationality sortability . However during the FLC, Chris! combined them. Can I ask you to work out a solution between you, so I can standardise it for all the lists. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  12:57, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps another column (giving the names) could be added to the "By nationality" table? Rules99 (talk) 13:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't really see how that would be necessary. The flags are easy to spot in the above table and it seems like unnecessary repetition. I do not like this option (per Cr.6 Visual appeal) and would prefer putting the nationality sorting back over this, but that is something I guess Chris would need to comment on. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  13:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. The nationality column has gone back in per a MOS issue Struway2 pointed out below. That fix has also resolved this issue. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  10:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * Manual of Style requires that when a flag is first used in a table or list, it needs to be accompanied by its country name. See MOS:ICON.
 * Sigh, okay I didn't know that. I wish someone had told me this on the first SPOTY list and not the fifth. This might take a bit of time, as I'll need to do all the other FLs too. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  10:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done (inc. other FLs) <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  10:44, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I do admire your conscientiousness, going back and doing the other lists as well.
 * It would be more helpful if footnotes a and b appeared immediately below the table they're used in, rather than in a Notes section a long way below.
 * Not done. WP:LAYOUT seems to suggest the end. Also there are multiple notes from all 3 tables, and it seems silly to have an individual Note section after every table for 1 note. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  13:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't really thinking of a whole Note section, just a couple of lines under the table, like here, for instance, though that style works better on a small table. It might be simpler to add a couple of lines of Key immediately above the table, so the reader can anticipate annotations to come: something along the lines of
 * Key
 * &dagger; Denotes joint winners
 * &Dagger; Denotes a winning couple
 * But if you're leaving them how they are, there's one thing that does need fixing, which is that you haven't got the reflabel/notelabel things formatted quite right. It shows up particularly with footnote c, where if you click on the c in the Winners by sport table, when you click on the letter c to go back after reading the footnote, you return to the top of the Winners by nationality table.
 * Done. I have added a key like you suggested, and a second backlink for that other note. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  23:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * For information, BBC Sport is a division of the BBC which publishes its own output, so should be publisher rather than work in those references citing it.
 * Not sure or that bothered. But this FAQ about the BBC Sport website says the work is copyright of the "BBC" not "BBC Sport" so I guess that would make BBC the publisher. I am not really fussed, so let me know if you want me to change them. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  13:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not that bothered either, but it might save you a bit of writing another time...
 * Ok thanks, <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  23:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure I'd have bothered with a separate section for a two-item legend, meself... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also done. Thanks, <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  15:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Comments from
 * The lead image should not have a period in the caption.
 * "Oleg Protopopov and Ludmila Belousova, joint recipients of the award in 1968, were also husband and wife." Are they not married anymore?
 * There is an inconsistency in dashes; use either spaced en dashes or unspaced em dashes, not both.
 * "The winning sportsperson is the one with the largest amount of points in total."-->The winning sportsperson has the most total points.
 * "American boxer Muhammad Ali and Swiss tennis player Roger Federer have each won the award three times, [4] while Australian golfer Greg Norman has won the award twice. " "while"-->and.
 * "The husband and wife skating duo"->The husband-and-wife skating duo
 * "Belousova was the first woman to become Overseas Personality—she is also the oldest, aged 33." Tense inconsistencies ("was" "is")
 * "who won in 1976 aged 16"-->who won in 1976 at age 16
 * "Two cricketers that received the award" Use "who", not "that", when referring to people.
 * "with fourteen recipients, tennis is the most represented sport.-->tennis has the highest representation, with with fourteen recipients. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All done, thanks for taking a look. <b style="color:#E32636;">Rambo's Revenge</b> <b style="color:#FFA500;">(talk)</b>  11:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:21, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.